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14 Books removed from the KJV? - 8/20/2008 5:40:06 PM
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CarlaJames
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Someone told me there were 14 books removed when the KJV was translated and the Bible we used today (KJV and the ones translated from the KJV) are just watered down versions of the original text. Has anyone ever heard this before? I know things get lost in translations, but the 14 books I never heard of.
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RE: 14 Books removed from the KJV? - 8/20/2008 6:03:52 PM
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GrahamCracker
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They are probably talking about the Apocrypha. Depending on how you count the number, most people would probably accept 14 as the number. Roman Catholics consider the Apocrypha to be part of the Canon of the Word of God. I assume that's what they are talking about.
The original edition of the KJV, from my recollection, DID include the Apocrypha. I am not sure when, but later editions did not include it. Protestants have never accepted the Apocrypha as the Word of God. Historically, there is the argument that in the early years of the Church, Roman Catholics didn't either.
Read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: 14 Books removed from the KJV? - 8/20/2008 6:13:54 PM
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rcjames
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Larry is correct. The following books were inclided in the 1611 version, they were removed in 1885 by decree of the Archbishop of Canterberry. I have an earlier version that has these books in it.
Additions to Daniel
Judith
Esdras
Additions to Esther
Susanna
2 Maccabees
4 Ezra
Prayer of Manassheh
Sirach
Wisdom of Solomon
Baruch (incl Epistle of Jeremiah)
1 Maccabees
Tobit
Bel
Thanks
RC
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Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: 14 Books removed from the KJV? - 8/20/2008 6:17:35 PM
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CarlaJames
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So these are the books the Catholic church has in their Bibles? The 14 missing ones from the KJV?
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RE: 14 Books removed from the KJV? - 8/20/2008 9:14:39 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CarlaJames
So these are the books the Catholic church has in their Bibles? The 14 missing ones from the KJV?
Yes, that is correct.
I have read them a number of times and there is nothing startling or earth shaking that would deter or change anyone's faith.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: 14 Books removed from the KJV? - 8/20/2008 9:35:03 PM
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9drtr
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CarlaJames
So these are the books the Catholic church has in their Bibles? The 14 missing ones from the KJV?
Not quite.
My NJB (Catholic Bible) includes
Bel and the Dragon and Susanna as the last two chapters of Daniel, and The Song of the Three Children added to the text of Daniel
Judith
Additions to Esther
1 & 2 Maccabees
Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus)
Wisdom of Solomon
Baruch (incl Epistle of Jeremiah)
Tobit
The others have never been accepted into the Catholic cannon.
As RC says, there isn't much in them that will affect a person's faith one way or the other.
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Edwin
When we know who is coming, how can we worry about what is coming? When the last hour belongs to us, how can we worry about the next minute?
Ross Crighton
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RE: 14 Books removed from the KJV? - 8/20/2008 10:15:57 PM
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colliefan
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What was the reason for their removal? Were they included in the Geneva Bible and the Bishops Bible?
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RE: 14 Books removed from the KJV? - 8/20/2008 10:25:42 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Larry is correct. The following books were inclided in the 1611 version, they were removed in 1885 by decree of the Archbishop of Canterberry. I have an earlier version that has these books in it.
Additions to Daniel
Judith
Esdras
Additions to Esther
Susanna
2 Maccabees
4 Ezra
Prayer of Manassheh
Sirach
Wisdom of Solomon
Baruch (incl Epistle of Jeremiah)
1 Maccabees
Tobit
Bel
Thanks
RC
I don't know about this. I have a copy of the KJV published in 1857 and it has none of the Apocrypha in it. Maybe the Archbishop of Canterbury removed the Apocrypha prior to 1885.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: 14 Books removed from the KJV? - 8/20/2008 11:02:13 PM
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eaglelady11
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Wikipedia Link about Apocrypha
Here is a link to Wikipedia. It also includes the book of Enoch. I thought there was a book of Thomas? There is controversy as to what books were not included so RC's list may actually be accurate
Gee, the bible and controversy, imagine that!
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RE: 14 Books removed from the KJV? - 8/20/2008 11:15:02 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
I thought there was a book of Thomas?
There is a Gospel According to Thomas, but it has been proved to be suprious.
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RE: 14 Books removed from the KJV? - 8/21/2008 12:16:56 AM
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elliemaejune
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
What was the reason for their removal? Were they included in the Geneva Bible and the Bishops Bible?
I believe it was because the writing was not on the same par as the other books which became canon, causing the translators to doubt that they were in fact inspired by the Holy Spirit; also, neither Jesus nor any of the writers of the New Testament ever quote them.
I don't know whether they were included in the Geneva or Bishops Bibles.
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RE: 14 Books removed from the KJV? - 8/21/2008 12:23:29 AM
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Lurker
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There's a slight difference between the "Apocrypha" and "Deutero-canonical" books. Most people say Apocrypha but mean Deutero-canonical. The Deutero-canonical books are those books that were accepted as canon by members of the Church at one point or another. These are the ones mentioned by RC in his post. Apocryphal books are things like the "Gospel of Thomas" or "book of Enoch" or "The gospel of Judas" They were never accepted as canonical to my knowledge by any Christian Church.
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-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: 14 Books removed from the KJV? - 8/21/2008 6:51:28 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
There's a slight difference between the "Apocrypha" and "Deutero-canonical" books. Most people say Apocrypha but mean Deutero-canonical. The Deutero-canonical books are those books that were accepted as canon by members of the Church at one point or another. These are the ones mentioned by RC in his post. Apocryphal books are things like the "Gospel of Thomas" or "book of Enoch" or "The gospel of Judas" They were never accepted as canonical to my knowledge by any Christian Church.
There may be some semantic difference, Lurker. Apocrypha is the Protestant accepted term what Catholics call Deutero-canonical books. I even had a copy a few years ago. The flyleaf and binding said Apocrypha, not Deutero-canonical. I say po-TAY-to and you say po-TAH-toe.
I note that you referred to books such as the Gospel of Thomas as apocryphal as opposed to the non correct term of Apocrypha. A slight difference and as I said, perhaps semantic. I have never heard of the Gospel of Thomas being included in the Apocrypha. But in the last few years lots of publications have come out referring to the "Lost Books of the Bible," which include the Gospel of Thomas. I suppose some even refer to them as "hidden," which might account for use of the same term.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: 14 Books removed from the KJV? - 8/21/2008 6:58:03 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
What was the reason for their removal? Were they included in the Geneva Bible and the Bishops Bible?
It would be a mistake to say they were "removed," if by that one believes they were once considered part of the Canon of God's Word. The accepted history in many theological circles is that they were included for historical purposes but not because Protestants ever believed them to be the Word of God.
http://members.aol.com/twarren13/apoc.html
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: 14 Books removed from the KJV? - 8/21/2008 6:58:48 AM
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Doghouse
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An opinion is that the removal of the subject Books from the KJV was in reaction to the Catholic Emancipation Act of 1829 in England (yes, your Spiritually inspired guide to faith was edited by men for man-made political reasons...)
Here's the Wiki article - enjoy
Catholic Relief Act of 1829
Prior to this Catholics were not allowed to hold public office and a number of other restrictions were enforced. I personally believe (nothing authoritative - take it for what it is, mere conjecture) that the KJV was edited to assure and assert distance between the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church as a reaction the Catholics suddenly having the same rights as everyone else.
That is why inposts on other threads, I ask people to consider the authority by which they have come to their version of Faith. Are you really pursuing the Deposit of Faith that Jesus gave to His Apostles, or are you following the authority of politicians and secular leaders, and their agendas?
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When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: 14 Books removed from the KJV? - 8/21/2008 7:27:42 AM
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Strider33
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I have a KJV printed in the late 1800 that includes the apocrypha, but in a modified arrangement.
There are three separate sections: Old Testament, Apocrypha, and New Testament.
This is not the arrangement that exists in the Catholic Bible. The books of the apocrypha were considered part of the Old Testament, and mixed in with all the other books.
Judaism also altered its opinion about whether or not the Apocrypha should be part of the canon. At some point a copuncil of Rabbis decided to remove them. I don't remember when that was, but Wikipedia probably has the info.
Two translations that (I think) included the apocrypha were the Septuagint and the Vulgate. The Septuagint was a translation of the OT from Hebrew into Greek. The Vulgate, done by St. Jerome was a translation of the OT and NT into Latin.
The above is from memory so there could be errors. If I find any really bad errors, I'll come back and edit.
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RE: 14 Books removed from the KJV? - 8/21/2008 1:07:46 PM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please continue discussion in THIS THREAD. If you'd like to discuss the books that are not Catholic canon (the extrabiblical works), please begin a new thread specifically on that subject. The discussion of the Apocrypha or Deutero-canonical works belongs in the Catholic vs Protestant one-stop thread (as linked).
Closing this one.
Thanks!
Tricia
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