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A question - 11/5/2008 11:13:52 AM
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tscoffey
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If G-d decided that having Jesus be so closely associated with the Republican Party was a hinderance to others coming to salvation, would it be ok with you if G-d removed the Republican Party from the situation so that salvation through Christ be more effectively proclaimed?
My opinion is, "Yes" it would be ok. And we may just be seeing it happen right now.
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RE: A question - 11/5/2008 11:20:02 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
If G-d decided that having Jesus be so closely associated with the Republican Party was a hinderance to others coming to salvation, would it be ok with you if G-d removed the Republican Party from the situation so that salvation through Christ be more effectively proclaimed?
My opinion is, "Yes" it would be ok. And we may just be seeing it happen right now.
So you are saying that making the US a single party system will make us a more Christian country? I don't think it's going to work that way.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: A question - 11/5/2008 11:52:04 AM
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tscoffey
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That somewhat presumes that G-d is concerned about "one party rule" or "Christian countries".
And there are many in politics that argue we are already a "one party rule" country, with both major parties being 2 sides of the same coin.
And besides, my question was a hypothetical. "If G-d decided....would it be".
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RE: A question - 11/5/2008 11:52:38 AM
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Yeshuashme
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NO.
_____________________________
" He that getteth Wisdom Loveth his own soul: He that Keepth Understanding Shall Find Good. "
" There Is No Wisdom Nor Understanding Nor Counsel Against the LORD. "........
Jesus.
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RE: A question - 11/5/2008 11:59:05 AM
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galadriel2
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Well, from the perspective of the Scripture's teaching on the sovereignty of God - Sen. Obama is the Lord's pick for President of the U.S. and 'leader of the free world'. Personally, I think that Sen. Obama is going to prove to be THE PERFECT PERSON for the devil to deceive people through and that is God's will. (not that I think Sen. Obama is the anti-Christ or anything) America is definitely being judged by the Lord in incremental phases. You could look at it that the Republican Party hasn't been clear enough on distinguishing Christianity from politics - actually - many see them as synonymous, it seems to me - but - the Biblical teaching on God's grace is that it is sovereign, boundless, and its kingdom is a kingdom of righteousness. Where it reigns over an individual, elect of God, it produces a general course of righteous living stemming from the eternal life that the person possesses because Christ's righteousness has been imputed to the person per God's election of the person in saving them and giving them the gift of faith. As the verse goes - 'where sin abounded grace abounded much more'. Not even our sin is a deterent to God's grace. So in view of the Biblical teaching of God's grace, the Lord doesn't have to put the Republican Party out of majority rule in government for Him to accomplish His will in saving His elect and building His church. He might put it out of commission because it doesn't glorify God - but then neither does the Democratic Party. Needless to say, I think you would have more of a chance of finding Christ among the Republicans than the Dems, though.
God bless all abundantly,
Galadriel
JHUD - love the Ronald Reagan quote 
< Message edited by galadriel2 -- 11/5/2008 12:07:15 PM >
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RE: A question - 11/5/2008 12:32:49 PM
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tscoffey
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Very well stated. But what if someone needing to come to Christ is put off because he can only see Republicans, and he isn't a Republican? And what if a man-made entity (a political party) tries to associate itself so closely with Christ that that association is a hinderance? Should that association not be broken? How might it be broken? Is a Christian non-Republican less saved than a Republican one?
Paul advocated giving up meat if it hindered the message of the Gospel. Was his advice merely dietary in nature?
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RE: A question - 11/5/2008 12:51:18 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tscoffey
Is a Christian non-Republican less saved than a Republican one?
Is a person that suppots the sin of homosexuality, and the murder of innocent llife really a Christian at all; I think not.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A question - 11/5/2008 12:51:57 PM
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galadriel2
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Tscoffey, you ask great and penetrating and thoughtful questions. I'm not sure I have the answers, but I will put down what I think and why.
With Paul in Romans 14 and 15 in teaching about personal convictions - that is what the subject is. The teaching has to do with individuals forming individual opinions based on underlying principles they glean from the word. With God taking the Republicans out of majority rule - that is God acting, not man. I don't think that a political party associating itself too closely with Christ is a hindrance to anyone coming to Christ. First and foremost because of the nature of God's grace. But secondly, because if a party wants to make Christ known - more power to them. The problem comes in when people claim to be representing Christ and His teachings when they aren't. This is happening in both parties with various individuals. The Republican Party, I think, has associated itself more with Christ than the Dems because of its pro-life stance, anti-gay marriage, etc., that believers bring into it. To say, even hypothetically, that God would take the Republicans out of power because they end up associating Christ with things that are not of Christ, well, what is happening is that God is working all things together to conform His children into the likeness of His Son because of His great love for them. This works towards that goal. Paul says at the end of Ephesians chapter one that Christ is the head of the church, His body, and that He is head over all things for the benefit of the Church, His body. In other words, Christ is on the throne and He is orchestrating everything for the benefit of His elect. If getting the Republicans out of power works towards this goal then that is what is going to happen. This seems to me to be the best way to view and interpret and find the meaning behind the events of yesterday. To say that the Republican Party is a hindrance to people coming to Christ - this has been true in many instances - but the Dems are just as bad, even worse.
God bless abundantly,
Galadriel
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RE: A question - 11/5/2008 2:11:49 PM
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zamdad
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God does not associate with any political party. Most who profess Christ also affiliate with the republican party. The democratic party has, by affiliation, moved further and further away from God by promoting abortion, the homosexual agenda, government welfare and a host of other issues.
The results of last nights elections shows that we are not seeking God for who he is. We are seeking the gods we want.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: A question - 11/5/2008 2:49:44 PM
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tscoffey
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Ok, but what if they can't see Christ because he's hidden behind a big 'R'?
When the early church was hiding Christ behind circumcision, what did Paul tell them to do?
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RE: A question - 11/5/2008 3:48:01 PM
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demolay
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TS, I dunno, but I'm thinking you're attaching too much significance to politics regarding salvation. I don't think man is powerful enough to hide or reveal Christ; only God can do that.
I used to spend a considerable time debating with atheists on atheist blogs. One thing I learned there, if someone in our free country really wants to hide from Christ, then He can't be "revealed" even if you defeat arguments, shower God's Word, or (figuratively) hit the lost with a 2-by-4. On the other hand, I've read "Voice of the Martyrs" stories of Christ revealed to people even though their government has done everything physically possible to "discourage" it.
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RE: A question - 11/5/2008 4:46:02 PM
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OneJohn410
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tscoffey
If G-d decided that having Jesus be so closely associated with the Republican Party was a hinderance to others coming to salvation, would it be ok with you if G-d removed the Republican Party from the situation so that salvation through Christ be more effectively proclaimed?
My opinion is, "Yes" it would be ok. And we may just be seeing it happen right now.
G-d associates with all His creation, and wants to spend eternity with all peoples. I don't consider Him seeking to be associated with a political party, or a civic organization, or even one nation on earth any more than any other nation. Does He seek the lost through impersonal means? No. He seeks to use the church. Which church- what denomination? The denomination of you, me, and believers around the world. The politics don't matter. The lawmakers and governments can allow for some really ugly things to happen in this life. Individual ideologies. None of this should rear up in the body of Christ when it comes to sharing the Good News.
If people associating themselves with the collective thinking of their political party echo their beliefs in what they consider right and proper in serving G-d, I don't see Him brushing them aside, out of the picture. Certainly it is lame for anyone to say, sorry, Charlie, but you follow that other party that considers such and so. I hate it for you, but one day you'll get some real punishment for that. My party's position is the right one, and I'm not getting in on any of that punishment.
Two bits worth,
OneJohn410
_____________________________
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. -Romans 15:4 (NIV)
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RE: A question - 11/5/2008 6:08:12 PM
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leonfigg3
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tscoffey
If G-d decided that having Jesus be so closely associated with the Republican Party was a hinderance to others coming to salvation, would it be ok with you if G-d removed the Republican Party from the situation so that salvation through Christ be more effectively proclaimed?
My opinion is, "Yes" it would be ok. And we may just be seeing it happen right now.
I mean no offense, but I believe this question is a bit confusing.
Since when does what we think matter to God?
Since when is God's plan for salvation dependent on how we see things?
Man is not meant to totally understand God, every time we think we do, He throws us a curve.
We are meant to have a relationship with Him, and be submitted to Him so much that we are nothing but empty vessels for Him to work through.
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RE: A question - 11/5/2008 8:05:49 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tscoffey
If G-d decided that having Jesus be so closely associated with the Republican Party was a hinderance to others coming to salvation, would it be ok with you if G-d removed the Republican Party from the situation so that salvation through Christ be more effectively proclaimed?
My opinion is, "Yes" it would be ok. And we may just be seeing it happen right now.
A better question might be:
If God decided that having the Democrat party remove itself so far from Jesus that he could not be seen even with the Hubble Telescope, would it be ok for God to remove the Democrat party so that Christ could once again be seen?
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RE: A question - 11/5/2008 8:07:05 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tscoffey
Ok, but what if they can't see Christ because he's hidden behind a big 'R'?
When the early church was hiding Christ behind circumcision, what did Paul tell them to do?
I don't think Christ is that small, do you?
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RE: A question - 11/5/2008 11:44:17 PM
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Woman4Him
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This is a totally OT question, but I have seen it often in this thread. I know this question will seem trivial, and I may look stupid for asking but---why do some posters, when referring to God, leave out the middle letter, like this: G-d? I seriously want to know. It's been a while since I've posted here, and when I saw this tonight, I remembered wondering about it before, but not asking. (I thought I could figure it out, but I can't.)
Thanks!
_____________________________
"What goes into a mind, comes out in the life." (Capstone)
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RE: A question - 11/6/2008 10:10:31 AM
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tscoffey
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I think Cal may have stated my position best:
Cal Thomas essay
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RE: A question - 11/6/2008 11:53:01 AM
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OneJohn410
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That's an interesting article. It reads too much either keep doing this, or drop it and do something different to me. There's no room in it for the evangelical Christian to be doing both. It also suggests that worldview is something that has been attempted to be inserted into the picture, rather than elected through candidates into it. Money is likely not the answer, but to lean heavy on who in which party has the right worldview and who does not still gets a human judgement factor in there- creates a thinking that people are unable to change...
Where does the Republican party 'end' in your hypothetical question? In DC? Is the thinking of what is Republican and what isn't also going to encompass half the thinking (or thereabouts) of the US populace too, as in now we've thought of such, and now the such is gone?
_____________________________
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. -Romans 15:4 (NIV)
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RE: A question - 11/6/2008 3:16:47 PM
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tscoffey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
That's an interesting article. It reads too much either keep doing this, or drop it and do something different to me. There's no room in it for the evangelical Christian to be doing both. It also suggests that worldview is something that has been attempted to be inserted into the picture, rather than elected through candidates into it. Money is likely not the answer, but to lean heavy on who in which party has the right worldview and who does not still gets a human judgement factor in there- creates a thinking that people are unable to change...
Where does the Republican party 'end' in your hypothetical question? In DC? Is the thinking of what is Republican and what isn't also going to encompass half the thinking (or thereabouts) of the US populace too, as in now we've thought of such, and now the such is gone?
"Doing both" . I suppose one could do that, but a constant "perspective test" on oneself would be necessary.
Like this, perhaps:
"Indicators I might be taking politics too seriously with regards to the last election outcome"
1) I am convinced that we have a "less Christian Country" than before.
(Maybe G-d doesn't wan't "Christian Countries", but rather, "Christ followers")
2) I fervently believe that the election of <insert name here> means G-d is now obviously punishing our nation.
(Remember that many Christians may feel the opposite, substituting "punishing" with "blessing")
3) I just know that Scripture indicates <insert name here> is mentioned in the Bible , book of <insert book here>
as a sign of the end-times.
(Remember how many other people throughout history have also been named as such, and quite incorrectly so)
4) I wonder how/why G-d could ever save those on "the other side"
(He saved you, so nothing is impossible with G-d)
5) My dog doesn't like me anymore
(In your mood, can you blame him?)
6) I just saw a black helicopter.
(It was actually dark green, but appears black from far away set against the sky. The National Guard
in <insert state here> has dozens of them. They train 1 weekend a year, remember?)
In honesty, I went through all the same emotions in 1992 when Clinton was elected. Really stupid of me to do.
I was immature, especially spiritually. Letting go of politics (mostly) helped me change my thinking on a lot of things.
So when Clinton was reelected in 1996 (something I knew would happen long before the event) I wasn't as upset.
And as to what may happen to the Republican Party? Well, it has been facing a demographic inevitability for some time now. It could regroup in 4 or 8 years (like from 1964 to 1968). Or it could end up like the Whig Party*, which collapsed over the question of slavery. But my feeling is that Obama may be as politically transformational as Franklin Roosevelt was. However given our much more cynical era, that political transformation may be shorter lived. But I wouldn't doubt seeing massive changes in health care, energy, Iraq etc. But I don't persionally know what G-d's will is on national health care, energy, or Iraq -- and neither do you.
(* Note that the Whigs were replaced politically by the Republican Party, which pronptly elected Lincoln in 1860. The Republicans then dominated the presidency, with only Grover Cleveland serving as a Democrat , until 1920).
But irrespective of any transformation, or the condition of the Republican Party, can't you still -
- Help widows and orphans in need?
- Be kind and Christ-like to your neighbor?
- Be a caring and faithful spouse?
- Tell others of your salvation?
- Give to the poor?
< Message edited by tscoffey -- 11/6/2008 3:23:42 PM >
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RE: A question - 11/6/2008 9:02:41 PM
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galadriel2
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Good question, tscoffey, but I think the answer is in your question somewhat. The Republican Party can hide Christ behind the big "R", but when it comes to the church - that is a different thing. The Church is God's choice for the vehicle to protect and spread the truth, not the Republican Party. That makes all the difference in how He deals with people it seems to me. The Republicans have screwed up with regards to not clearly distinguishing that the Lord isn't concerned with form of government - just function, but many issues they are right on - more than the Dems. The Dems are often the same way about form vs. function in government. But the issue is that God doesn't see the Republicans as His representative on earth and so He doesn't deal with them as a people in the same way that He does His body, the Church.
I think the real issue of the election isn't the ousting of the Repubs. Its the installment of the Dems and of Sen. Obama in particular. The Lord has just given the people their idol. If you don't think that is His wrath acting, think again. We tossed Him out of our schools and brought in the Christ-hating secular psychologists to help men. Violent crime, divorce, births out of wedlock, abortions, etc., they have increased exponentially. Our society is being judged. The Lord is giving people up to their sin - in exponential numbers and increases (I guess would be better wording). Now He is pulling the idols of money and things out from under people (which they have murdered their unborn children to be able to have) and still - no repentence whatsoever. Now the Lord has given Americans their idol - and let me tell you - He won't have a problem ripping it out from under them. In the end, I think Sen. (President) Obama is going to turn out to be one of the biggest disappointments America has come across yet - because that is what He does with people's idols.
...You can't confuse the Church with the Republican Party. They aren't the same thing and so God won't deal with them in the same way.
God bless,
Galadriel
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RE: A question - 11/6/2008 9:13:39 PM
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galadriel2
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I think a basic problem is that we are rejecting God's way to grow the Church and get people saved. Politics isn't God's way to save the world. Preaching 'Jesus Christ and Him crucified' is His method and content of teaching and preaching - not global warming, economics, morality, education, creation, etc.....'For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified so that your faith would not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God....that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying and these things I want you to AFFIRM CONSTANTLY THAT THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN GOD SHOULD BE CAREFUL TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS.' (1 Cor. ch. 2, Titus ch. 3) We should never look to politics to change anything in a substantial or supernatural and eternal way. Only the power of God in Christ through the Gospel preached by called men will do that. Perhaps this is an expected thing for me to say, or some would rather have me say something else.
Galadriel
As far as a quick comment on the Cal Thomas article - great about living as Jesus and 'when we are weak then we are strong'...BUT...IT IS THE GOSPEL that 'is the power of God unto salvation' not the lifestyles of His followers. Only the Gospel preached by called men, (to say it yet again) is what saves and sanctifies men and thus transforms a culture. The Church isn't the doormat and servant of society, in other words. She is the protector and spreader of the truth. In doing this, she helps men in the best way they can be helped. The kindest thing you can do for a person is to tell them the truth. And first and foremost she tells the truth - the Gospel - to glorify God - even above the salvation of men. God isn't a means to an end. He is THE END.
< Message edited by galadriel2 -- 11/6/2008 9:56:16 PM >
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RE: A question - 11/6/2008 9:21:44 PM
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galadriel2
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Woman4Him...the G-D thing is a way of writing God's name and not really writing it. Jewish people sometimes believe that one shouldn't even say God's name because it is so holy that even to say the word 'God' is irreverent. In writing this comes out as 'G-d'.
God bless,
Galadriel
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RE: A question - 11/7/2008 3:35:13 AM
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47.samuel
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tscoffey
If G-d decided that having Jesus be so closely associated with the Republican Party was a hinderance to others coming to salvation, would it be ok with you if G-d removed the Republican Party from the situation so that salvation through Christ be more effectively proclaimed?
My opinion is, "Yes" it would be ok. And we may just be seeing it happen right now.
*************************************************************
quote:
Galatians 4:11-14 (Paul Opposes Peter)
11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong.
12 Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel .....
The threads and posts of many conservative Christians demonstrate a sincere belief that the GOP is God's "Party" and that no "True Believer" would ever associate with those atheist Democrats.
This reminds me of Galatians 2, where Peter and his fellow Jewish Christians refused to eat with their Gentile counterparts because they were not "circumcized" or followed Jewish customs.
Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, responds by accusing the Apostle Peter and his followers of, "..... not acting in line with the truth of the gospel."
If the two greatest leaders in the history of Christianity were not in agreement on such a fundamental issue, who are we to pass judgment?
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RE: A question - 11/8/2008 12:55:13 PM
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galadriel2
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We should pass judgment because Paul was right and Peter was wrong....But apart from the issue of being discerning between truth and error - the difference between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party is not really a parallel comparison between what is going on in Galatians chapter 2 which has to do with the role of the OT law in the lives of NT believers. That isn't the issue when dealing with the two political parties. The issues in Galatians were also issues that had to do with believers in Jesus Christ and God's chosen vehicle for spreading His Gospel - His Church. We are dealing with secular organizations when we deal with political parties that are composed of believers and unbelievers for the express purpose of promoting policies through attaining political power by being voted in. We can discern what policies and ideas a party puts forth as going along with what the Bible teaches and what policies don't go along with it. Its best to go with the candidates and parties that are most in line with the Word. That's all. God doesn't view either party as a vehicle for spreading His truth. He views the Church as the institution that is to do this...oh...also...the institution of the family is an even more fundamental institution set up by God to pass truth on from one generation to the next. Political parties are more on the line of a baseball team, or something like that. They are really quite arbitrary when it comes to getting God's truth and life out to people.
God bless all abundantly,
Galadriel
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RE: A question - 11/8/2008 7:13:16 PM
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bravjim
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If washing a gay man's feet or a woman's feet who is considering abortion is what it takes to win their hearts for Christ, then let me get my towel and tub. But we have to be consistent in showing our love to others, and that is the reason this kind of service would be important. Galadriel, I respectfully submit that you are dead wrong about us not being the servants of society, because that is exactly what Jesus teaches us to be. Until we take that kind of attitude, we will not have the kind of impact that the church is supposed to be having in the world. He was God, and considered it not robbery to become man; and finding Himself in the form of a man, He submitted Himself to serve others. It does not take away from what you are saying about the gospel; the two go hand in hand. Christ did teach that He who is last will be first in the kingdom of God. This doesn't make us doormats, it makes us servants. Look at what Paul went through in his ministry. He was stoned and left for dead, shipwrecked, imprisoned, and beaten, and he suffered it all while knowing that it was God's will so He suffered it gladly. This was meant to be an example to us, because Paul himself tells us to follow his own example.
_____________________________
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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