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Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/3/2008 2:43:49 PM
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stellaluna
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http://news.aol.com/article/atheists-sue-over-homeland-security-law/265707
This is a weird story. I think the clause the article refers to is really strange"
quote:
Of particular concern is a 2006 clause requiring the Office of Homeland Security to post a plaque that says the safety and security of the state "cannot be achieved apart from reliance upon almighty God" and to stress that fact through training and educational materials.
The plaque, posted at the Kentucky Emergency Operations Center in Frankfort, includes the Bible verse: "Except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain."
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/3/2008 2:56:39 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
http://news.aol.com/article/atheists-sue-over-homeland-security-law/265707
This is a weird story. I think the clause the article refers to is really strange"
quote:
Of particular concern is a 2006 clause requiring the Office of Homeland Security to post a plaque that says the safety and security of the state "cannot be achieved apart from reliance upon almighty God" and to stress that fact through training and educational materials.
The plaque, posted at the Kentucky Emergency Operations Center in Frankfort, includes the Bible verse: "Except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain."
Looks like a slam dunk case, legally.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/3/2008 3:02:08 PM
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stellaluna
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I agree. I can kind of understand if that clause was really old, but it was written in 2006? I'm surprised it wasn't challenged until now.
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/3/2008 3:43:55 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7621
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While I think such a addition to a law is probably unnecessary, it is perfectly consistent with the Preamble of the Kentucky constitution which begins:
We, the people of the Commonwealth of Kentucky, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy, and invoking the continuance of these blessings, do ordain and establish this Constitution.
Similar clauses appear in most state constitutions. I would think that fact alone should provoke a dismissal of the atheist’s case.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/3/2008 3:59:01 PM
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ik3900
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
As an aside, athiests really are a thin-skinned, milk-veined lot aren't they? Poor dears...
As an atheist myself I have come to regard many of the christians with whom I interact on this forum as considerate and well meaning. That general feeling of mutual respect is undermined by the kind of pettiness on display in your post.
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/3/2008 4:03:26 PM
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stamper_ben
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ik3900
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
As an aside, athiests really are a thin-skinned, milk-veined lot aren't they? Poor dears...
As an atheist myself I have come to regard many of the christians with whom I interact on this forum as considerate and well meaning. That general feeling of mutual respect is undermined by the kind of pettiness on display in your post.
How about if that was re-phrased to say they are "easily offended"?
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/3/2008 4:07:51 PM
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ik3900
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: ik3900
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
As an aside, athiests really are a thin-skinned, milk-veined lot aren't they? Poor dears...
As an atheist myself I have come to regard many of the christians with whom I interact on this forum as considerate and well meaning. That general feeling of mutual respect is undermined by the kind of pettiness on display in your post.
How about if that was re-phrased to say they are "easily offended"?
It would be a generalisation with equally little merit.
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/3/2008 4:24:07 PM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ik3900
quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: ik3900
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
As an aside, athiests really are a thin-skinned, milk-veined lot aren't they? Poor dears...
As an atheist myself I have come to regard many of the christians with whom I interact on this forum as considerate and well meaning. That general feeling of mutual respect is undermined by the kind of pettiness on display in your post.
How about if that was re-phrased to say they are "easily offended"?
It would be a generalisation with equally little merit.
Well then why don't the atheists have a chuckle about the "ignorant" anachronism and leave it at that! Why the lawsuit? It's not stating that belief in God is a requirement to be a member of DHS or even be protected by its services!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/3/2008 5:07:28 PM
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ik3900
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quote:
Well then why don't the atheists have a chuckle about the "ignorant" anachronism and leave it at that! Why the lawsuit? It's not stating that belief in God is a requirement to be a member of DHS or even be protected by its services!
That depends. When you refer to the atheists do you mean these specific atheists or atheists in general? We're far from being a homogeneous group.
As for myself, I tend not to take any notice of the various references to god be they on currency, buildings, bumper stickers, wherever. It just doesn't bother me. Nor does it bother any of my atheist friends. If I had to guess I would say that the ratio of number of atheist lawsuits:number of atheists is tiny and yet every time one of them pops up in the media I and my friends are subjected to a tirade of completely unjustified ridicule.
Believe me when I say the very last thing I want is to sanitize society of its traditions. Even though I don't necessarily believe in the concepts behind them I still value them.
I hope I've expressed myself clearly enough there because I'm conscious of the fact that I'm taking this thread a little off topic.
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/3/2008 8:13:38 PM
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litfire2000
Posts: 265
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
http://news.aol.com/article/atheists-sue-over-homeland-security-law/265707
This is a weird story. I think the clause the article refers to is really strange"
quote:
Of particular concern is a 2006 clause requiring the Office of Homeland Security to post a plaque that says the safety and security of the state "cannot be achieved apart from reliance upon almighty God" and to stress that fact through training and educational materials.
The plaque, posted at the Kentucky Emergency Operations Center in Frankfort, includes the Bible verse: "Except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain."
I think the reference to Almighty God quite appropriate. The problem comes in with the Bible quote. It could be construed as promoting the Christian religion and therefore violate separation of church and state.
_____________________________
Ps. 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/3/2008 10:49:16 PM
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colliefan
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I guess they will need to sue to get this Bible verse removed from the Liberty Bell.
Lev 25:10 (ESV) 10And you shall consecrate the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you, when each of you shall return to his property and each of you shall return to his clan.
also, they need to be sure no insurance policy uses the words "acts of God."
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/3/2008 11:20:00 PM
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schtumpy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
also, they need to be sure no insurance policy uses the words "acts of God."
Hmm.
If we're relying on Almighty God to keep us safe, then who is to protect us from "Acts of God"? 
_____________________________
"I deplore what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Attributed to Voltaire
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/4/2008 12:07:11 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
also, they need to be sure no insurance policy uses the words "acts of God."
Hmm.
If we're relying on Almighty God to keep us safe, then who is to protect us from "Acts of God"?
Interesting conundrum you have uncovered! But remember "In God We Trust!"
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/4/2008 2:31:01 AM
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schtumpy
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Well and good but if you asked the mothers of the drowned babies of New Orleans or Sri Lanka or Thailand, they might well say that their trust was a little misplaced.....
_____________________________
"I deplore what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Attributed to Voltaire
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/4/2008 3:24:45 AM
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Jhud
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Well and good but if you asked the mothers of the drowned babies of New Orleans or Sri Lanka or Thailand, they might well say that their trust was a little misplaced.....
How do you know what they were trusting in?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/4/2008 4:20:51 AM
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schtumpy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Well and good but if you asked the mothers of the drowned babies of New Orleans or Sri Lanka or Thailand, they might well say that their trust was a little misplaced.....
How do you know what they were trusting in?
Are you implying that if they had trusted in God, their babies wouldn't have drowned?
_____________________________
"I deplore what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Attributed to Voltaire
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/4/2008 9:12:33 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7621
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Are you implying that if they had trusted in God, their babies wouldn't have drowned?
Simply pointing out that such examples hardly serve to demonstrate how trusting in God failed them.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/4/2008 10:12:43 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 754
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
While I think such a addition to a law is probably unnecessary
What addition?
quote:
it is perfectly consistent with the Preamble of the Kentucky constitution which begins:
Thanks for the pedantry; this was mentioned in the article already.
quote:
Similar clauses appear in most state constitutions. I would think that fact alone should provoke a dismissal of the atheist’s case.
Only if it can be legally argued that states' constitutions are exempt from the federal constitution's establishment clause.
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/4/2008 10:51:38 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7621
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
What addition?
The one we were discussing.
quote:
Thanks for the pedantry; this was mentioned in the article already.
Then it would be relevant, not pedantic.
quote:
Only if it can be legally argued that states' constitutions are exempt from the federal constitution's establishment clause.
The preambles have been there since the founding of most of the state consititutions; a little late to claim they are an establishment of religion.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/4/2008 11:17:16 AM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
The one we were discussing.
No one was discussing an addition to anything.
quote:
Then it would be relevant, not pedantic.
We're both mistaken: it is actually redundant.
quote:
The preambles have been there since the founding of most of the state consititutions; a little late to claim they are an establishment of religion.
Well, again we are both mistaken. Whether or not religious preambles to states' constitutions can be grandfathered around the establishment clause is not the issue here.
We are talking about homeland security which is a federal issue, not just a states issue. The establishment clause covers acts of Congress and anything federally related. I don't see where a state has the right to verbally usurp a federal program with religious lingo.
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/4/2008 11:25:41 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10366
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From: Lone Star State
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The suit is over Kentucky's Office of Homeland Security. Where does that become a federal issue?
Or does that even matter to your blustering?
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/4/2008 11:27:41 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7621
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
No one was discussing an addition to anything.
I don’t know what you are discussing but I am talking about the extraneous addition of religious statements to otherwise ordinary laws.
quote:
We're both mistaken: it is actually redundant.
Well it hadn’t been mentioned yet, and is relevant to the conversation, and thus worth mentioning.
quote:
Well, again we are both mistaken. Whether or not religious preambles to states' constitutions can be grandfathered around the establishment clause is not the issue here.
We are talking about homeland security which is a federal issue, not just a states issue. The establishment clause covers acts of Congress and anything federally related. I don't see where a state has the right to verbally usurp a federal program with religious lingo.
The article seems to indicate that the building is a state office, the ‘Kentucky Emergency Operations Center’. It doesn’t appear they are doing anything to ‘usurp’ a Federal program in any way.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Atheists Sue Over Homeland Security Law - 12/4/2008 11:43:44 AM
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rjd628
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
While I think such a addition to a law is probably unnecessary, it is perfectly consistent with the Preamble of the Kentucky constitution which begins:
We, the people of the Commonwealth of Kentucky, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy, and invoking the continuance of these blessings, do ordain and establish this Constitution.
Similar clauses appear in most state constitutions. I would think that fact alone should provoke a dismissal of the atheist’s case.
Section 5 of the Bill of Rights of the Kentucy Constitution states explicity: "No preference shall ever be given by law to any religious sect, society or denomination; nor to any particular creed, mode of worship or system of ecclesiastical polity; ... " (http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/legresou/constitu/005.htm)
Any biblical quote or statement of faith like that embedded in the addition is a 'creed'. Certainly we can disagree about what makes a creed - but to me the addition is a violation of the Kentucky constitution.
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