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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/14/2008 7:19:22 AM
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manda59
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Christina
You might want to keep a look out for a book called "The Hiding Place" by Corrie Ten Boom. A movie was also made of it (it's available on DVD).
Here is a review:
quote:
"The Hiding Place is the story of Corrie ten Boom's life as a middle-aged woman in Holland during World War II. She was an active member of the resistance, harboring Jews in her home, the Beje. Her story begins when she is a child, but quickly progresses to her adulthood. The main plot is Corrie's work helping Jews. She took them into her home, usually for a short time, and then helped them find a better hiding place. She supplied them with false papers and ration cards. Corrie worked with a group of Dutch Christians and built a network in Holland to help whoever needed help. Her older sister hid Jews as well, and her brother ran a nursing home and was able to help Corrie.
Unfortunately, the Nazis find out that Corrie is active in the resistance and she, her sister, her father and many others are arrested in a night raid (miraculously, the Jews in her home are hidden so well they aren't found and all but one live through the Occupation). Even though she is elderly, Corrie survives prison and is transported to Ravensbruck, a concentration camp, with her sister Betsie.
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/14/2008 11:45:19 AM
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lexie
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Manda did a good job at explaining the relationship between Dutch and Germans.
Not many people know the history of the Netherlands. And the Dutch have always prided themselves on freedom of religion, but there is still a collective upset that they didn't do basically anything to save those Jews who were killed by the Germans. Which leads to why there is a lot of trouble going on in the country with Muslims now.
My father was born while the Netherlands was under occupation. There are some stories I have heard that I can't even fathom people living under.
But on the other side, my step father grew up during WW2 in a refugee camp run by the Germans, and has nothing but good things to say of the way they were treated by German soldiers.
A lot of people outside of Europe just think of the Dutch and Germans as the same, which is offensive because we have distinct cultures and histories. Hey it's like calling a Canadian an American. Yes, there are similarities in our cultures, but we don't want to be known as something we aren't, we want to be known by our culture.
While I, or my family, wouldn't hold a grudge against anyone of German heritage, it's like slavery or residential schools....you can't just up and forget.
quote:
For example, my kids are all post Cold War but know several people from Russia and former Soviet countries that were here as exchange students and don't think of Russians as something to be offended about.
I can't really see that as a comparison though. Russia never invaded US soil. Your kids didn't hear stories about their grandparents losing their jobs, hiding in their homes while Russian soldiers marched down the streets, hoping that they didn't come into their homes, trying get their pregnant wife to the hospital on the front of their bike so she can give birth. Their parents didn't leave the US for a new country because their town was destroyed and there weren't any opportunities left for their family.
It's not a grudge that people hold, but it's a history and a life they won't forget. And remember that the Netherlands declared themselves neutral in WW2 and were still invaded by the Germans. They weren't involved in a war with anyone else.
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/14/2008 4:35:49 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
A lot of people outside of Europe just think of the Dutch and Germans as the same,
I've never confused the Dutch and the Germans. LOL...just like I'd never confuse Americans with Canadians...
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 7:34:55 AM
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agapetos
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quote:
I don't even think British, I think English. Would you think 'English' if you were speaking to someone from N Ireland, Scotland or Wales too? I'm just curious.
quote:
I think maybe here in the states we don't make those connections and hold those grudges (not really the word I want but can't think of a better one). While I appreciate that you didn't want to use the word 'grudge' I'm upset you did. Perhaps I misunderstand you though?
I do not bear grudges against Germans today for events that happened many years ago. I do remember what happened though. I do also believe that any Nazi who is still alive should be brought to trial as a war criminal, just as any other person involved in war crimes should. Just as believe that James Seale should have been brought to trial (and was) last year.
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 7:49:04 AM
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zoebob
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quote:
I do not bear grudges against Germans today for events that happened many years ago. I do remember what happened though. I do also believe that any Nazi who is still alive should be brought to trial as a war criminal, just as any other person involved in war crimes should. Just as believe that James Seale should have been brought to trial (and was) last year.
Well, I guess what I was trying to say is that you seem to be saying you still hear German and think Nazi. THere is an automatic assumption that a German is a Nazi. That some haven't gotten over that.
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 8:25:38 AM
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agapetos
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Not at all. I say German and think German. I think concentration camps and think Nazi's. There is a huge difference.
Many of the Germans in todays society carry a huge burden of guilt for the sins of their parents and grandparents, and what their country did during WWII. I do not believe they should. However, I do not believe that it should be forgotten either in the hope it will prevent similar happening again.
I do not believe that those living in the southern states of the US should have a similar burden of guilt placed on them for fighting to keep slaves or for events of the 1960's either. I don't believe that these events should be forgotten for the same reason as above.
I do believe that individuals who committed such henious crimes as those commited by the Nazis (though there were some Nazis who helped from within) and the KKK should be brought to justice though.
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 8:38:30 AM
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zoebob
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Did you leave something out of that post?
I agree that it shouldn't be forgotten. However, someone's comment that they are insulted at being called German seems like some sort of automatic connection to Nazi Germany. Like someone in the US being seriously insulted at being called a northerner...that says grudge to me too.
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 9:01:56 AM
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agapetos
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quote:
Did you leave something out of that post? Such as?
quote:
However, someone's comment that they are insulted at being called German seems like some sort of automatic connection to Nazi Germany. Like someone in the US being seriously insulted at being called a northerner...that says grudge to me too. I think we can all be offended if we're classed as being from a country we're not from. It's one thing to be called a northerner (when we're from the south), it's quite another to be called French when we're Spanish.
Kath made a comment about not thinking British but 'English'. I asked for clarification from her (obviously she's not online right now so hasn't had chance to respond) but there are many Scottish, Welsh and N Ireland fold who'd be offended if she classed them all as 'English'.
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 9:09:32 AM
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zoebob
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quote:
Not at all. I say German and think German. I think concentration camps and think Nazi's. There is a huge difference.
This is what I was talking about. You are saying when you say German you think German and then in the next sentence you say you think COncentration Camps and Nazi's and say there's a difference but it seems like you are sayiing the same thing not different.
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 9:57:26 AM
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agapetos
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I don't and never have assumed each and every German was (or is) a Nazi. I don't meet a German and think 'Oooh, you're a Nazi!'. I meet a German and talk to them as though they are a person (just as I'd meet an American, Canadian, Australian or Italian etc) and then maybe decide 'Oooh, you're a Nazi!' (regardless of the country they're from). Not necessarily because they're a swastika bearing member of the Nazi party but because of their attitude to people (though I will stress that I haven't thought this for many years about anyone).
Zoe, I believe I'm right in thinking that you're an American? In 1775 the American Revolutionary War began. You still celebrate today, on July 4th. Imagine then, being classed as British (as the war was with them), even today. How would you feel? Offended or not bothered. How would you feel about not celebrating Independance Day? Upset or not bothered. Let's face it, that war did happen a long time ago. It was (as always is) a big step when a country changes in such a huge way as gaining independance. The Dutch were occupied during WWII. I've known several people who were born during/ shortly after this time. The people I've met don't bear grudges. Their wounds do take time to heal though. Sometimes generations. Why? Because recovery isn't always instant. It may take years for the land and economy to return to 'normal' after such events.
I'm pretty sure that many people in the newly formed 'United States of America' bore grudges against the British shortly after that war. I wonder how many folk hold the same view today?
Remembering, bearing grudges, healing wounds, etc. They are all different. I pray the world never forgets 9/11. I doubt the US ever will. But the pain felt today is not the same as the pain felt on 9/12. It changes as time passes for the majority of people. The wounds will heal. Slowly. Sometimes they will be ripped open again, sometimes just caught or hit slightly. It's not the same as bearing a grudge though.
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 10:12:53 AM
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lexie
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quote:
However, someone's comment that they are insulted at being called German seems like some sort of automatic connection to Nazi Germany
Actually, as much as there is such an awful history between the Germans and the Netherlands from WW2, that isn't where my being offended comes from. It comes from the fact that people can't be bothered to see (or learn) that there are huge differences between our cultures and instead just assume that all people from the same area of the world are the same.
I have Korean friends who are offended when they are called Chinese. West Indian friends who are offended when they are called East Indian. Serbian friends who are offended when they are called Croatian. The list goes on.
quote:
However, someone's comment that they are insulted at being called German seems like some sort of automatic connection to Nazi Germany. Like someone in the US being seriously insulted at being called a northerner...that says grudge to me too.
My offense was never an automatic connection to Nazi Germany. It is a culmination of factors, which obviously aren't understood outside of Europe. Yes, what happened in WW2 is a major part of it, but there is so much more to it. Which is why I said I take offense to European being thought of as Germany because there are so many more rich, distinct cultures in the continent. And believe me, when you correct people who call you German, and say you are Dutch, there are actually people who say to you "it's the same thing." No, it's not.
And the difference between the whole Dutch/German thing and the northerner/southerner grudge thing is this - it is still very fresh to us. There are still many, many people alive who lived through the German occupation. It was a major part of my family's life experience, and shaped much of their lives. When I hear stories about the occupation, it's not from a history book or stories handed down through the years but from my family members who lived through it.
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 2:00:58 PM
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Kath
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
I don't even think British, I think English. Would you think 'English' if you were speaking to someone from N Ireland, Scotland or Wales too? I'm just curious.
Hi Aga :)
When I hear Irish accent I think Irish, not English. When I hear Scots first I sort of melt because I love that accent, but think Scottish. I do not think of them as English. I don't know if I've ever heard a Welsh accent. I'm sure I have but wouldn't recognize it. I know there is a difference with Scotland and England, and Ireland. I don't think of them all as English.
I've never read history books about the problems with England and Scotland, just fictionalized accounts, like Mary Queen of Scotland by Margaret George or that movie about William Wallace, Braveheart.
When I think of British, I still think of England. I guess I don't think about it enough to remember that Scotland is part of Great Britain. Do people in Scotland think of themselves as British? (that may be a really dumb question, I've never thought about it before)
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 2:02:06 PM
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pink..
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
Christina
You might want to keep a look out for a book called "The Hiding Place" by Corrie Ten Boom. A movie was also made of it (it's available on DVD).
Here is a review:
quote:
"The Hiding Place is the story of Corrie ten Boom's life as a middle-aged woman in Holland during World War II. She was an active member of the resistance, harboring Jews in her home, the Beje. Her story begins when she is a child, but quickly progresses to her adulthood. The main plot is Corrie's work helping Jews. She took them into her home, usually for a short time, and then helped them find a better hiding place. She supplied them with false papers and ration cards. Corrie worked with a group of Dutch Christians and built a network in Holland to help whoever needed help. Her older sister hid Jews as well, and her brother ran a nursing home and was able to help Corrie.
Unfortunately, the Nazis find out that Corrie is active in the resistance and she, her sister, her father and many others are arrested in a night raid (miraculously, the Jews in her home are hidden so well they aren't found and all but one live through the Occupation). Even though she is elderly, Corrie survives prison and is transported to Ravensbruck, a concentration camp, with her sister Betsie.
Excellent book! I loved the movie too!
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 2:26:23 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
Do people in Scotland think of themselves as British? (that may be a really dumb question, I've never thought about it before)
It isn't a dumb question at all, Kath.
Some do, and some most certainly do not. That comes from both past issues with England, and more recent issues over the handling of Scottish oil. So it's worth treading very carefully when speaking to a Scot, until you're sure of how they feel about things.
< Message edited by manda59 -- 6/15/2008 2:32:28 PM >
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 2:27:40 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
I think we can all be offended if we're classed as being from a country we're not from.
Absolutely.
Especially IMO if the country we're being classed as coming from, is one which previously invaded and occupied our country, or tried to.
This made me think of the Republic of Ireland - they don't have any personal grudge against English people, but can never forget the atrocities we committed over there against Catholics, and how we leached their food resources from the land and sea and exacerbated the misery caused by the Irish Potato Famine (also called The Great Famine). The evidence of those things is still there in their land today (eg ruined houses dot the countryside in many areas). Generally Irish people are very welcoming to visitors from all sorts of countries, but tend to have a shorter fuse when it comes to English people coming over and complaining about this and that, not respecting the fact that Ireland is a totally different country with a totally different culture and a painful history, and behaving in an ignorant fashion. It doesn't mean they have a personal grudge against us, just that they can't forget the past, as it's part of their collective history, perspective and outlook, and they've had to live with the consequences.
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 2:28:38 PM
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pink..
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I've heard (don't know if it's true) that American's are ill thought of in other countries. Is that true and why?
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 2:29:25 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
Remembering, bearing grudges, healing wounds, etc. They are all different. I pray the world never forgets 9/11. I doubt the US ever will. But the pain felt today is not the same as the pain felt on 9/12. It changes as time passes for the majority of people. The wounds will heal. Slowly. Sometimes they will be ripped open again, sometimes just caught or hit slightly. It's not the same as bearing a grudge though.
You put this across very well, agapetos.
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 3:34:21 PM
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lexie
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quote:
I've heard (don't know if it's true) that American's are ill thought of in other countries. Is that true and why?
It definitely happens. I remember a thread about this here a long time ago and I related a story that happened to me while in Europe. Someone, who is American, jumped on me saying that where they live, Canadian tourists are also rude. I'm sure some of us are (in fact I've seen it) but not all of us on a whole. Same with Americans.
I think some people think ill of Americans because they may have come across rude Americans, while others think ill of Americans because they don't agree with the policy of the American government. I know of people who have travelled to the United States and been met with such ignorance about our own country, that they can't help but think Americans don't care about anything outside of themselves.
BTW.....I'm just relating what I have actually heard in regards to the question posed. I'm not saying all people think this or that all Americans are like this, just what I've heard.
Ok I'm going to relate my story. I was in Italy in a store. We were getting no service whatsoever, no matter how hard we tried (asking for help didn't work). I don't know what made the sales girl turn, but after listening to us talk for a while she said "are you Canadian?" I responded by saying yes. She said "oh I thought you were American, that's why I wasn't helping you." I never bothered to ask what her problem was, but I have met many Americans who have travelled bearing Canadian flags and they say they get better service overseas as well.
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 3:43:41 PM
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pink..
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lexie
quote:
I've heard (don't know if it's true) that Americans are ill thought of in other countries. Is that true and why?
It definitely happens. I remember a thread about this here a long time ago and I related a story that happened to me while in Europe. Someone, who is American, jumped on me saying that where they live, Canadian tourists are also rude. I'm sure some of us are (in fact I've seen it) but not all of us on a whole. Same with Americans.
I think some people think ill of Americans because they may have come across rude Americans, while others think ill of Americans because they don't agree with the policy of the American government. I know of people who have travelled to the United States and been met with such ignorance about our own country, that they can't help but think Americans don't care about anything outside of themselves.
BTW.....I'm just relating what I have actually heard in regards to the question posed. I'm not saying all people think this or that all Americans are like this, just what I've heard.
Ok I'm going to relate my story. I was in Italy in a store. We were getting no service whatsoever, no matter how hard we tried (asking for help didn't work). I don't know what made the sales girl turn, but after listening to us talk for a while she said "are you Canadian?" I responded by saying yes. She said "oh I thought you were American, that's why I wasn't helping you." I never bothered to ask what her problem was, but I have met many Americans who have travelled bearing Canadian flags and they say they get better service overseas as well.
hmmm..... interesting.
I personally have never been out of the country, so I have no idea how Americans are really treated.
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 4:49:52 PM
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lexie
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I think there are some people who would automatically judge you if they know you're American, but as long as you don't live up to the stereotypes, you wouldn't be treated harshly.
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/15/2008 4:52:12 PM
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pink..
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I know some Americans who don't treat people from other countries very nice regardless of if that person is a tourist or moving here.
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/16/2008 10:59:37 AM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
I've heard (don't know if it's true) that American's are ill thought of in other countries. Is that true and why?
Roberta,
Do you mean Americans personally, or American Foreign Policy?
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RE: Question from a Brit to any Y... umm American - 6/16/2008 12:32:27 PM
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Mrs.X
Posts: 788
Joined: 7/7/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
Christina
You might want to keep a look out for a book called "The Hiding Place" by Corrie Ten Boom. A movie was also made of it (it's available on DVD).
Here is a review:
quote:
"The Hiding Place is the story of Corrie ten Boom's life as a middle-aged woman in Holland during World War II. She was an active member of the resistance, harboring Jews in her home, the Beje. Her story begins when she is a child, but quickly progresses to her adulthood. The main plot is Corrie's work helping Jews. She took them into her home, usually for a short time, and then helped them find a better hiding place. She supplied them with false papers and ration cards. Corrie worked with a group of Dutch Christians and built a network in Holland to help whoever needed help. Her older sister hid Jews as well, and her brother ran a nursing home and was able to help Corrie.
Unfortunately, the Nazis find out that Corrie is active in the resistance and she, her sister, her father and many others are arrested in a night raid (miraculously, the Jews in her home are hidden so well they aren't found and all but one live through the Occupation). Even though she is elderly, Corrie survives prison and is transported to Ravensbruck, a concentration camp, with her sister Betsie.
That sounds like a great book, Manda. Thanks for recommending it.
Aga, I have a copy of a small poster of "Oversexed, overpaid and over here". Shows a picture of an American serviceman smiling and British servicemen glaring at him. LOL! I even have a bunch of stuff warning servicemen of VD and "good time girls" saying "VD can delay victory" and "She may look clean, but prostitutes and good time girls can spread VD."
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