quote:

What is "but when that is perfect comes"

quote:

According to this passage....what is the Perfect which comes? and has it came?

quote:

ORIGINAL: timf

quote:

What is "but when that is perfect comes"

Perfect = Telios more correctly translated complete. The context is "knowledge" and "prophecy" and may refer to how the early church received the word of God, directly by revelation. A common understanding is that once the Bible was complete, direct (partial) revelation would not be needed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doghouse

quote:

According to this passage....what is the Perfect which comes? and has it came?

In my humble opinion, what these passages mean is that someday, Jesus will return and will be standing before us. Jesus will then be a fact - a provable certainity standing in front of us that may be examined, tested (subject to the limits of Jesus's patience with His examiners). He will be able to correct all heresy that has crept into His CHurch and unite all denominations, heal all schisms.

If Jesus is fact, faith will drop away. We don't need to believe the unseen in faith, we can accept what is standing before us as fact.

If we possess fact, we have no need to hope. Our hopes and dreams will have been fulfilled, I mean...it's Jesus standing right there in front of us. We no longer have to hope for an audience with Him or to be at His feet as He imparts The Word to us...we will have Him here...

But love... that's a different thing. We can love now and we will love then. Love is present even if faith becomes fact and hope gives way to a fulfillment of that hope in the reality of Jesus standing before us.

And this is why the greatest of these is love. Love never passes away, it will be ever present.

So, to answer your question, when that is perfect comes is referring either to the return of Jesus before us, or it could be referring to partcular judgement, as we will no longer have to have faith in God if we are standing before Him in judgment and if, as a result of that judgment, we are in eternal presence with Him.

We won't need faith, we won't need hope. We will just need love.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Corinth7

Reminds me of the other post............the difference between Jesus Christ and Christ JESUS



When I think of the mirror image that WE are able to see through understanding

between the law and the spirit of the law....I think of the reflection



Try on a piece of paper........................writing JESUS CHRIST and hold it in front of a mirror

I just did this..............what are you going to see in the mirror as we read left to right


you will see : tsirhC suseJ Which is Christ JESUS

in another post.....we look at how their could be a difference in those terms....

I think the post is called the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Heaven

the point is........when you have Both the OLD Covenant and New Covenant

What is there to be a reflection of............the law was always HOLY.......the law is the Word of God
as ............................................................ ..Jesus is the Word of God

The thing we come to KNOW through the reflection is that God is God
The thing we come to understand through the reflection is that the very image of the law if Christ.

Correct me if i'm wrong..these are thoughts...I want to meditate on


Then could we say the reflection itself is revelation since it reveals the reversal of the law which is Grace???

quote:

NOW the question if "what is come" is revelation how does that relate to knowledge and prophesy passing?

quote:

Thanks For your humble reply it is well appreciated, However the problem I see with that is........the difference between what will pass and what remains- and the fact that Faith remains would mean that the passage could not be speaking of JESUS. Because if he came back then would their be any need for faith?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doghouse

quote:

Thanks For your humble reply it is well appreciated, However the problem I see with that is........the difference between what will pass and what remains- and the fact that Faith remains would mean that the passage could not be speaking of JESUS. Because if he came back then would their be any need for faith?

Verse 13 is set in the present. We have faith and hope because we do not possess fact and realization. But we will always have love. Love is not changed by the fulfillment of faith in fact and fulfillment of hope in realization. Love is love...always.

Verse 9 starts a pattern of comparing the present state to what will be upon the completion of the realization of the personal presence of Jesus and the fulfillment of hope in that event.

- We know...we prophesy...but when...the partial will be...
- When I was...I talked...I reasoned...but when...I set...
- For now...but then...we will see...
- Now I know...but then I will know...
- And now...

Notice the pattern of something present (or past even) contrasted with what will be. Love is the only thing that doesn't change or convert to something else (faith to fact, hope to realization).

quote:

YES, but it is LOVE being perfected in the body of Christ through Knowledge that comes by revelation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Corinth7

quote:

NOW the question if "what is come" is revelation how does that relate to knowledge and prophesy passing?

Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; 
if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will 
be set aside. 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, 
13:10 but when what is perfect 2 comes, the partial will be set aside. 
13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, 3 I set aside childish ways. 
13:12 For now we see in a mirror indirectly, 4 but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known. 
13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Well questions are What did prophecies do?
What did tongues do?
and what did knowlege do?-Gee and what type of Knowledge is he speaking about (all) (or specific)

I guess if we can answer these questions-then we can see if "Revelation" fits (the perfect which comes)

quote:

NOW once Revelation has expelled knowledge, tongues and prophecies.........then Faith, hope, and Love remain.......

quote:

We do not all know what it is..until we read it and get an understanding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doghouse

quote:

NOW once Revelation has expelled knowledge, tongues and prophecies.........then Faith, hope, and Love remain.......

The only "revelation" that will displace proper prophecy is Jesus standing in front of us to fulfill that prophecy.

Distinguish for me your use of the term "revelation" from use of the word "prophecy" above.

God has revealed Himself to His people through Scriptures. That revelation is perfect and should be all we need to know, but there are 30,000 different denoms of Christians. So while the revelation may be perfect, the discernment isn't. So the reality of the relationship of us to God is for now one that has to be humbly approached in faith, as we are temporal beings rooted in the here and now, and we cannot know fully until we posses provable, indisputable fact. 30,000 denoms bears witness that there is a dispute or two lying within our midst.

I believe this temporally incomplete reality is what Paul is talking about and acknowledging in verse 9 and verse 12 specifically.

For now - faith, hope and love remain with us - they do. But we won't always require faith, nor will we always require hope. We will no longer need faith when it has become fact, and we won't need hope when that hope has become reality.

But we will always need love.

quote:

We do not all know what it is..until we read it and get an understanding.

This is the can or worms I am talking about. How does one "get an understadning"? Obviously, some people are getting mistaken understandings if there are 30,000 denoms out there.

quote:

quote:

We do not all know what it is..until we read it and get an understanding.

This is the can or worms I am talking about. How does one "get an understadning"? Obviously, some people are getting mistaken understandings if there are 30,000 denoms out there.

quote:

...then let scripture interpret itself....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doghouse

quote:

...then let scripture interpret itself....

Hand a Bible to a Hindu or Muslim, and you will see why I disagree with the above.

Scripture is interpreted through the lens of the discerner - their culture and experiences. The discerner may be the reader, or it may be a preacher, a pastor, a prophet, or someone better or worse prepared or suited for that task. I believe the better prepared for the task of discernment are those that have been prepared for it by demonstrating gifts in it, i. e. a theological degree from an accredited institution of higher learning, as an example.

I have heard an awful lot of discernment, which is supposedly "Spirit guided" that is in complete disagreement with others who claim the same. Either somebody is not telling the truth, or the Holy Spirit has a wicked sense of humor.

quote:

According to this passage....what is the Perfect which comes? and has it came?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Corinth7

According to this passage....what is the Perfect which comes? and has it came?


13:8
Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside;
if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will
be set aside. 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part,
13:10 but when what is perfect 2 comes, the partial will be set aside.
13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, 3 I set aside childish ways.
13:12 For now we see in a mirror indirectly, 4 but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known.
13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.

quote:

13:8 Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside;
if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will
be set aside. 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part,
13:10 but when what is perfect 2 comes, the partial will be set aside.
13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, 3 I set aside childish ways.
13:12 For now we see in a mirror indirectly, 4 but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill_Mullins

In the first letter to the church at Corinth the Apostle Paul wrote

quote:

13:8 Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside;
if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will
be set aside. 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part,
13:10 but when what is perfect 2 comes, the partial will be set aside.
13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, 3 I set aside childish ways.
13:12 For now we see in a mirror indirectly, 4 but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known.

He is talking about the same event/process but from 3 different perspectives.

Verse 8 lists some of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit and states unequivocally that those miraculous gifts have an expiration date. Verses 9 & 10 tell us when that date will be

Verses 9 & 10 are juxtaposing "in part" versus (in most English Bibles) "perfect". While I am by no means a Kione Greek scholar, I have spent some time studying the language and especially meditating on this passage in the original language. In the original koine Greek the two terms are "εκ μερους" (ek merous) and "τελεοος" (teleos). "Ek merous" (the phrase most English Bibles render "in part") literally means "out of a part" or a part of a whole. "Teleos" (perfect) really means more like "mature" or "complete". It does not mean what we today would understand as "perfect - i.e. flawless. You could look at the juxtaposition as being, on the one hand, "incomplete" versus, on the other hand, "complete". Paul's readers would have understood that he was speaking of incomplete things versus a complete thing (thing not someone since the neuter form of the word was used) and that when the complete thing arrived the incomplete would stop. Since the miraculous gifts were pretty much all ways for Creator God to communicate with men, the logical conclusion would be that when the complete communication arrived the incomplete would pass away. It is entirely logical from this passage to take away the understanding that when the scripture was completed (some time after 90 A.D.) the other , incomplete/piecemeal revelations would end. And contemporary writings would bear this out. Reports of various miraculous manifestations of the Holy Spirit taper off and end after the dawn of the 2nd century. We hear nothing more until a generation or so later glossalalia appears. When tongues-speaking appears in the record there is virtually no chance of anyone being alive who had seen the real deal and so no one could challenge the tongues speakers.

Verse 11 juxtaposes immature versus mature. Just as one discards childish ways of doing things when they reach adulthood, so the less well developed channels of revelation would cease when God's complete word was in existence.

Verse 12 juxtaposes looking at one's self in a mirror of the time versus standing face-to-face with one's self. Remember, in New Testament times they had not developed the technology for producing large, optically flat pieces of glass. Mirrors of the time were made of metal - bronze or even silver - made as flat as the smith could make it and polished to a high gloss. Even KINGS could not have what you can by for a couple of dolars at WalMart today.

Paul is saying that the message from God is not easy to see/understand but when the teleos comes it will be as God were speaking to us one on one. He then returns to his original metaphor of complete versus incomplete and completes the metaphor by saying that the complete will let us know God fully - or at least as fully as our limited, temporal, 3-dimensional minds are able to know God.

I believe that the teleos refers to the scriptures which were available - though not collected into a single volume - by the end of the 1st century.

I do not wish to offend anyone who believes that the miraculous manifestations of the Holy Spirit are with us today. But I have seen mathematical analyses of recordings of tongues speaking and it is not possible that it is truly a language. I have even seen "interpreters" of tongues be fooled by someone speaking in an unusual foreign language. There were some people speaking in tongues when I was in college (early 70's - yes I am old) and a group of us went to watch. One (doubtless completely sincere and earnest) young man would speak (babble?) in a "tongue" and then another would "interpret" the speaking. There was nothing contrary to the scripture being taught but neither was there anything new. At one point one of my classmates - who was especially fluid and proficient in reciting the Greek scriptures - got up and and recited the first few verses of the Gospel of John. The "interpreter" stood up and began to teach a nice little lesson that had absolutely NO to anything in that amazing passage. My classmate stood back p and advised the group that what the "interpreter said was NOT what he has recited. The "interpreter" though sincerely was a fraud (although none of us actually SAID that. What my classmate did was to recite the passage in English (New American Standard IMS) and talk about the cessation of miraculous gifts of the Holy spirit. It was a magic moment.

To date I have seen no evidence that any "healers" were anything but charlatans. Honest, well meaning charlatans, perhaps, but but charlatans none the less. I believe that many if not most are mountebanks and frauds preying on the minds of the unsophisticated.

In short, I believe that the purpose of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit was to guide, edify, educate and sustain the Church until the scripture had been completed. At that point those communication channels - being fragmentary and incomplete - ceased to be needed and passed away. I believe that the last of those gifts died with the one who had been given it. But I do not wish to offend or upset anyone here. I have simply shared the results of decades of meditating upon the word. Being human my understanding is of necessity flawed and incomplete. I claim no inspiration, only use of a gift of an unusually high verbal IQ to analyze the scripture in light of everything I have been able to learn of history and human behavior.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Corinth7
Thank....This was Great...Most Excellent reply......
I don't know if you got a chance to read any of what I wrote pertaining to this..but I would like you to......Would love to know what you think..........It seems you got your hand on your shoulders....And that is not to say...that others do not.........you just seem on the same alignment of thinking I am at right now.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

quote:

ORIGINAL: Corinth7
Thank....This was Great...Most Excellent reply......
I don't know if you got a chance to read any of what I wrote pertaining to this..but I would like you to......Would love to know what you think..........It seems you got your hand on your shoulders....And that is not to say...that others do not.........you just seem on the same alignment of thinking I am at right now.....

Come on! Every one is in error, but the one who is "on the same alignment of thinking" and one other who speculates that Paul is speaking about the KJV canon, while the person you respond to the most is you yourself. Are you serious? Hold up a piece of paper in a mirror with a string of English letters that have been chosen based on what they look like as much as how they sound and draw some spiritual insight from the jumble that inversion creates.

I must say, on this thread so far, the only true discussion I have seen is the phrase, "On some things I agree to disagree.....".

The verse is contrasting the prophetic gifts with the gifts of charity. Prophetic gifts provide limited understanding, valuable at the time but limited. When perfect knowledge comes prophetic gifts are not needed because what they would reveal is included in the perfect. On the other hand even if perfect faith, hope and love exist, imperfect love still has value. Every act of charity is valuable in and of itself. To take the OP phrase and make it into some prophetic statement about the KJV canon or the end of some "age" is truly ironic. It says the most important thing in the passage is something that Paul is saying is of comparatively little value.

quote:

The verse is contrasting the prophetic gifts with the gifts of charity. Prophetic gifts provide limited understanding, valuable at the time but limited. When perfect knowledge comes prophetic gifts are not needed because what they would reveal is included in the perfect. On the other hand even if perfect faith, hope and love exist, imperfect love still has value. Every act of charity is valuable in and of itself.