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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 12:29:33 AM
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StephK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tarox
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
Why should they change the rules for one kid? Proms are not a right. They are a privilege.
Why should that rule exist in the first place? Its discriminatory.
Schools have a right to set the rules of behavior and dress.
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Stephanie
A heart at peace gives life to the body, but envy rots the bones. ~~Proverbs 14:30 NIV~~
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 2:42:04 AM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tarox
Why should that rule exist in the first place? Its discriminatory.
I guess that depends on what definition of discriminate you're using. In a very basic sense all rules are discriminatory. They make a distinction between acceptable and unacceptable behavior. There is nothing wrong with defining a code of conduct.
In this case, I fail to see why a formal dance is in any way biased or prejudiced in requiring certain attire, or in requiring that those attending to so in a male-female pair. Men wearing black tie, and women wearing appropriate evening gowns has been the social standard for such formal occasions for quite some time. I see no reason why the school shouldn't have such etiquette spelled out, since obviously some of the students have no clue what their social responsibilities are in this case.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 8:11:34 AM
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rlj
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I have absolutely no problem with the rule that the school has on this. I think it is absolutely absurd that the school would cancel the prom over something like this. The school stood its ground by not bending the rule, there was no reason to cancel it for the however many other students who would show up and follow the rules.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 9:50:08 AM
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stellaluna
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Here is my problem with the situation, with the caveat that I actually don't know what the written policy was for dress or dates.
1) If other students are allowed to attend the prom with someone of the same sex, then there is no basis for not allowing this student and her girlfriend to go together.
2) If other students are allowed to attend the prom with someone of the same sex, are they being asked if they are dating? If not, this girl shouldn't have been asked either.
3) Are all the other students being asked to state their intended dress before the prom? If not, then this student shouldn't be asked. If there is no policy, then it's moot.
Prom is a privilege, but going out of your way to prevent two students from attending...up to and including canceling the party for everyone...is just spiteful.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 9:58:03 AM
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davelinde
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
I think it is absolutely absurd that the school would cancel the prom over something like this.
I have no firsthand knowledge... but I don't consider it absurd.
The school officials are still running the school and the ACLU isn't. They were faced with a bunch of less than ideal choices and picked the one that left them in charge.
For sure the battle is not over, but at least for now some school official is able to avoid being forced to allow their school to normalize behavior many people consider destructive.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 10:04:41 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
Prom is a privilege, but going out of your way to prevent two students from attending...up to and including canceling the party for everyone...is just spiteful.
yes spiteful on the part of the lesbians who tried to disrupt a prom, by breaking protocol and the rules.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 10:10:18 AM
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stellaluna
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You're assuming again that there were rules in place. We haven't seen any rules yet, despite looking for them. Making them up as you go along to keep two girls from going to prom is silly and yes, spiteful.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 10:24:10 AM
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stellaluna
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Well, the school website is still down (and school officials are still hunkering down and making a huge PR mistake, but whatever)...however I was able to find out that the student in question went to buy tickets and was told she couldn't buy a "couples" ticket because the school was afraid that it would lose money from kids of same sex going together and claiming to be couples to get the discount. I'm sure it escalated from there.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 10:37:17 AM
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Marcus.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
You're assuming again that there were rules in place. We haven't seen any rules yet, despite looking for them. Making them up as you go along to keep two girls from going to prom is silly and yes, spiteful.
Spiteful to keep obvious evil away from the others?
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 10:40:58 AM
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stellaluna
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But that's the thing. They aren't keeping obvious evil away from the others. These girls are their classmates all the time. I guarantee they didn't suddenly become gay and start dating the day before prom tickets went on sale. And if the objective is to keep away obvious evil, the school will have the kids dancing to sacred hymns, keeping a three-foot rule, and keeping an eye on every hotel and motel in a 100-mile radius. It's silly.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 10:47:01 AM
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davelinde
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
...school was afraid that it would lose money from kids of same sex going together and claiming to be couples to get the discount. I'm sure it escalated from there.
OK, I'm lost -- the article I read quoted the kid about being proud of being lesbian and wanting the "right" to cross dress. You're saying that this was actually about ticket pricing and costs? Or are you saying that the school can only have rules prohibiting same-gender couples if they apply them to everyone? Why?
Would it be OK if the school prohibited a teacher or adult from accompanying a student to the prom if the were doing it to promote their sexual relationship, but allowed adults to accompany minors to the prom when it was a non-sexual relationship?
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 10:53:31 AM
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davelinde
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
But that's the thing. They aren't keeping obvious evil away from the others.
So what standards of behavior would you endorse? This seems like a reasonable line to me... but not the ACLU apparently. Another article quoted the ACLU wrt to allowing homosexual clubs to operate as a school activity - I guess that's good too?
The bottom line is that it is destructive behavior and effective restraint is a good thing.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 11:10:23 AM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
...school was afraid that it would lose money from kids of same sex going together and claiming to be couples to get the discount. I'm sure it escalated from there.
OK, I'm lost -- the article I read quoted the kid about being proud of being lesbian and wanting the "right" to cross dress. You're saying that this was actually about ticket pricing and costs? Or are you saying that the school can only have rules prohibiting same-gender couples if they apply them to everyone? Why?
Would it be OK if the school prohibited a teacher or adult from accompanying a student to the prom if the were doing it to promote their sexual relationship, but allowed adults to accompany minors to the prom when it was a non-sexual relationship?
See, most schools sell individual tickets and discounted tickets for couples. Like, if you are going alone, you pay $20. If you are going as part of a couple, you pay $25 for two people. (Actually, lots of events have the same kind of policy. I've seen it a lot, including at churches.)
So, according to an article on the CBS site (I think), the girl went in December to buy her prom tickets. She wanted a couples ticket and was told two people of the same sex can't have a couples ticket because if they allowed that, they would lose a lot of money. Why? Because a lot of high schoolers go to prom alone, with friends of the same sex. The school didn't want to lose money by all these "individuals" coupling up and buying discounted "couples" tickets.
What likely happened (and I'm purely speculating here) is that the girl made the case that she was actually dating this other girl and not simply trying to avoid paying the extra money. And I have no idea whether the girl announced that she was a lesbian at the time of buying tickets, or if she was simply known to be one. I would be more interested in the case if she had been denied buying two individual tickets.
<shrug> They'll work it out somehow, but I don't think canceling the entire prom was the solution. Especially if it's that set up where the juniors do all the work for the seniors. If that's the case, these kids have worked to make a nice prom for the class ahead of them and are not reaping the benefits of their hard work the year before.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 11:25:04 AM
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davelinde
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
(and I'm purely speculating here) ...I would be more interested in the case if she had been denied buying two individual tickets.
but I don't think canceling the entire prom was the solution
If the objection was purely on economic grounds it makes no sense at all. The article I read said the school had expended funds already. I would guess that the students get a refund on all tickets (singles and pairs) so the school has costs with no revenue.
My speculation was that legal costs to fight were more than sunk costs - but I have no idea.
I also assumed the ACLU was talking of a suit based on discriminatory practices and not discriminatory pricing?
So if they had been told not to buy individual tickets and cross dress is that better or worse? I mean... is it alright for the school to have any standards of behavior or must anything be allowed if the ACLU likes people to do it?
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 11:40:20 AM
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stellaluna
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It's hard to say how this particular school handles the prom financially without them coming forward and actually giving their side of the story.
At many schools, the junior class "gives" the prom to the senior class. The school budgets some money up front (usually from the general activity fund) with the idea that ticket sales will replenish the amount they spend. The junior class has fundraisers for any extra money needed and organizes the whole thing, rents a venue, hires a band or DJ, decorates, etc. This is all done in good faith that when they are seniors, they just get to show up and enjoy the final big party of their high school career.
If I was a betting woman, I'd say the school doesn't want gay couples at its prom. But instead of saying that, which would guarantee a lawsuit, the same-sex ticket pricing policy was tried first, only to have a student stand up and say she didn't accept it. That's why I'm more interested in what would have happened if she had just said, "Okay, I'll take two individual tickets."
Where this dress code comes in, I have no idea. I've seen some pretty crazy things worn to proms with no fallout and I have known girls who went and did not wear formal dresses, or dresses at all, and there was no fallout from that.
This whole thing would be a lot less confusing if the school district would comment.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 11:56:15 AM
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davelinde
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From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
If I was a betting woman, I'd say the school doesn't want gay couples at its prom.
This whole thing would be a lot less confusing if the school district would comment.
Thanks for the info on prom financing... I never went to one and had no idea how it worked.
I wasn't betting... I just assumed the school doesn't want gay couples at the prom and they were threatened with a suit.
Again - I don't know, are schools required to be supportive of homosexuality? I knew some curriculum was teaching it as normative, I just didn't know how much discretion school officials still have here.
I can also understand why the school won't comment. It might become clear but it won't become less contentious. There is a large segment of the population who sincerely believes sexual orientation cannot be controlled and that all forms of sexuality are good. For them these standards of behavior are tantamount to racism and will surely draw a lot of heat.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 12:03:30 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
Again - I don't know, are schools required to be supportive of homosexuality? I knew some curriculum was teaching it as normative, I just didn't know how much discretion school officials still have here.
It appears to me that on the grounds of disruption they would have a place to forbid lesbians to attend as lestians.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 2:13:26 PM
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everythingat
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I think the school district is fighting a losing battle here.
quote:
McMillen's school is located in Itawamba County in northern Mississippi, and borders Pontotoc County, where a federal lawsuit ended another school's practice of student-led intercom prayers and Southern Baptist doctrine Bible classes more than a decade ago.
quote:
The ACLU said school officials told McMillen that she and her girlfriend, who is also a student, could be asked to leave the prom if people complained about them being there.
quote:
In November, officials at Tharptown High School in Franklin County, Ala., reversed an earlier decision to bar a lesbian from attending the prom with a female date.
quote:
U.S. Rep. Jared Polis, D-Colo., has introduced federal legislation making discrimination in schools based on sexual orientation illegal.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 2:38:40 PM
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lemon_sorbet
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In a funny kind of way, the school is "right" in banning everyone from prom. If the lesbian gals were barred from prom because of the possibility that they would be sexually active (which is "wrong"), then all couples should be banned from prom because of the possibility that they would be sexually active before marriage (which is "wrong").
What a ridiculous school!
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 3/13/2010 3:12:12 PM
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KaptZ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lemon_sorbet
What a ridiculous school!
Yep. 
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...to stand up and say so AND enforce it across the board. If they're being wussies and trying to hide behind other policies, then I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for them. They were bound to have someone challenge them at some point.
