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ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA

The moral decay within America's public university system continues, with an assist from a federal judge.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/28/court-university-expel-student-opposes-homosexuality/

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“Julea Ward was not discriminated against because of her religion. To the contrary, Eastern Michigan is deeply committed to the education of our students and welcomes individuals from diverse backgrounds into our community.”

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she would only be allowed to remain in the program if she went through a “remediation” program so that she could “see the error of her ways” and change her belief system about homosexuality.

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the university determined that she would never change her behavior and would consistently refuse to counsel clients on matters with which she was personally opposed due to her religious beliefs

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

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That doesn't matter what the venue is.

So a private institution shouldn't be allowed to decide the standards they set for who they will allow or not allow to complete their education?

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“Julea Ward was not discriminated against because of her religion. To the contrary, Eastern Michigan is deeply committed to the education of our students and welcomes individuals from diverse backgrounds into our community.”

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I'll answer your question with my own questions.

Does a restaurant owner have the right to serve whom he pleases and not others?

Does the owner of a private club have the right to deny membership to someone of a different color, religious beliefs, or sexual "orientation?"

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Eastern Michigan is listed as a public school, which means they receive public funds and cannot discriminate against this student. They are not private.

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

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Eastern Michigan is listed as a public school, which means they receive public funds and cannot discriminate against this student. They are not private.

Yes, I realize that. As I felt I had made clear in post #3915.

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ORIGINAL: Marcus.

I've been thinking about this but a more appropriate line of questions would be:

*Would you counsel a pedophile how to have a better relationship with their partner?
*Ditto a necrophiliac.
*How about a person into bestiality.
*Would you counsel a husband or wife how to cheat on their spouse better so as not to be caught and how to improve the relationship with the outsider?
*How about a brother and sister having an incestuous relationship?

Those are far more similar to the objection this young lady raises.

For tomorrow's debate.

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I believe they should have that right - they are private businesses without government funding. Of course, they should also be willing to accept the backlash for their decisions. If someone founds an all white (or all black, or all Hispanic, etc.) club, they shouldn't be shocked when people of all colors turn away in disgust.

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ORIGINAL: cow451

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ORIGINAL: Marcus.

I've been thinking about this but a more appropriate line of questions would be:

*Would you counsel a pedophile how to have a better relationship with their partner?
*Ditto a necrophiliac.
*How about a person into bestiality.
*Would you counsel a husband or wife how to cheat on their spouse better so as not to be caught and how to improve the relationship with the outsider?
*How about a brother and sister having an incestuous relationship?

Those are far more similar to the objection this young lady raises.

For tomorrow's debate.

Strawman, ethical counseling is not based on supporting anything illegal. No ethical counselor would encouraged lying, cheating or stealing. Professional organizations have codes of ethics and states have licensing standards.

I know many people in the mental health business and of all religious and non-religious pursuasions. Without exception, they encourage their clients to practice their religions (except those in cults like the Moonie). Christian counselors can work well in secular settings. The notion that there is some big anti-Christian bias among therapists is promoted by people like James Dobson, often to steer people to "Christian" counselors. Some use their Christianity as a marketing tool.

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ORIGINAL: Marcus.


Not a strawman. I'm just taking the ACA ethics guide about "state of being" to other groups that seem to be a "state of being" as well. When has anyone ever heard of a pedophile loosing their attraction to children, or a person who engages in bestiality or necrophilia also. I've never heard of a mental health professional say that change was possible for these groups. I didn't see a guideline about legality in regards to this "state of being" reasoning that the ACA uses with homosexuality.

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ORIGINAL: Marcus.

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ORIGINAL: cow451

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ORIGINAL: Marcus.

I've been thinking about this but a more appropriate line of questions would be:

*Would you counsel a pedophile how to have a better relationship with their partner?
*Ditto a necrophiliac.
*How about a person into bestiality.
*Would you counsel a husband or wife how to cheat on their spouse better so as not to be caught and how to improve the relationship with the outsider?
*How about a brother and sister having an incestuous relationship?

Those are far more similar to the objection this young lady raises.

For tomorrow's debate.

Strawman, ethical counseling is not based on supporting anything illegal. No ethical counselor would encouraged lying, cheating or stealing. Professional organizations have codes of ethics and states have licensing standards.

I know many people in the mental health business and of all religious and non-religious pursuasions. Without exception, they encourage their clients to practice their religions (except those in cults like the Moonie). Christian counselors can work well in secular settings. The notion that there is some big anti-Christian bias among therapists is promoted by people like James Dobson, often to steer people to "Christian" counselors. Some use their Christianity as a marketing tool.

Not a strawman. I'm just taking the ACA ethics guide about "state of being" to other groups that seem to be a "state of being" as well. When has anyone ever heard of a pedophile loosing their attraction to children, or a person who engages in bestiality or necrophilia also. I've never heard of a mental health professional say that change was possible for these groups. I didn't see a guideline about legality in regards to this "state of being" reasoning that the ACA uses with homosexuality.

Another non-strawman amazingly, "Would you counsel a husband or wife how to cheat on their spouse better so as not to be caught and how to improve the relationship with the outsider?". When I was going through my divorce, I was reading a book on trying to fight the divorce process and win back your spouse. This situation supposedly happened with one of the author's counseling clients. The wife was seeing a marital counselor who was doing this.

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ORIGINAL: TheosCentric

From a blog:

Court Upholds Expulsion of Counseling Student Who Opposes Homosexuality
In his 48-page opinion, Judge Steeh claims the university had a rational basis for adopting the ACA Code of Ethics. “Furthermore, the university had a rational basis for requiring students to counsel clients without imposing their personal values,” he wrote in a portion of his ruling posted by The Detroit News. “In the case of Ms. Ward, the university determined that she would never change her behavior and would consistently refuse to counsel clients on matters with which she was personally opposed due to her religious beliefs – including homosexual relationships.”

There are several inconsistencies in Steeh’s judicial opinion. First, he claims she would be guilty of imposing her personal values, but then claims she would refuse to counsel clients on matters where her convictions were opposed to their views. Which is it?

Second, what would a non-religious counselor do if faced, as they often are, with a client who wants to either leave a homosexual lifestyle or deal with homosexual lusts and tendencies? The answer is obvious since the ACA has ruled that all “Reparative Therapy” (attempts to help individuals who want to leave the homosexual lifestyle) is unethical. Thus they would either have to impose their values on their client or refuse to counsel the client—exactly what Ward is said to be doing.

Third, counseling research has proven repeatedly that no counselor can counsel value-free. It’s obvious that the only values counselors are no longer free to practice are Christian values.

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I also looked up what the ACA has to say about homosexuality and found this:
Exploring ethical issues related to conversion or reparative therapy

IOW, the student is right in refusing to counsel homosexuals based on what the ACA recommends. It completely goes against her beliefs based on the Bible. Counselors, Christian or not, are not values-free, as the above blog post says. At issue is the fact that secular Universities and organizations are attempting to expel anyone who uses Christianity as a value system.

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ORIGINAL: TheosCentric

From a blog:

Court Upholds Expulsion of Counseling Student Who Opposes Homosexuality
In his 48-page opinion, Judge Steeh claims the university had a rational basis for adopting the ACA Code of Ethics. “Furthermore, the university had a rational basis for requiring students to counsel clients without imposing their personal values,” he wrote in a portion of his ruling posted by The Detroit News. “In the case of Ms. Ward, the university determined that she would never change her behavior and would consistently refuse to counsel clients on matters with which she was personally opposed due to her religious beliefs – including homosexual relationships.”

There are several inconsistencies in Steeh’s judicial opinion. First, he claims she would be guilty of imposing her personal values, but then claims she would refuse to counsel clients on matters where her convictions were opposed to their views. Which is it?

Second, what would a non-religious counselor do if faced, as they often are, with a client who wants to either leave a homosexual lifestyle or deal with homosexual lusts and tendencies? The answer is obvious since the ACA has ruled that all “Reparative Therapy” (attempts to help individuals who want to leave the homosexual lifestyle) is unethical. Thus they would either have to impose their values on their client or refuse to counsel the client—exactly what Ward is said to be doing.

Third, counseling research has proven repeatedly that no counselor can counsel value-free. It’s obvious that the only values counselors are no longer free to practice are Christian values.

I also looked up what the ACA has to say about homosexuality and found this:
Exploring ethical issues related to conversion or reparative therapy

IOW, the student is right in refusing to counsel homosexuals based on what the ACA recommends. It completely goes against her beliefs based on the Bible. Counselors, Christian or not, are not values-free, as the above blog post says. At issue is the fact that secular Universities and organizations are attempting to expel anyone who uses Christianity as a value system.

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"Plaintiff was not required to change her views or religious beliefs; she was required to set them aside in the counselor-client relationship

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ORIGINAL: Marcus.

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"Plaintiff was not required to change her views or religious beliefs; she was required to set them aside in the counselor-client relationship

As a Christian you can't set aside you beliefs and remain a Christian. If you can your beliefs are merely intellectual exercise. Our beliefs are supposed to impact all sectors of our lives and bring them into compliance with being a follower of Christ. Sounds to me like this academic staff truly needs to take a class in Christianity as they have n concept of what they are asking and the impact. Which would also impact any counseling they do with a Christian as well. They would be entirely unsuited to counsel a believer.

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ORIGINAL: cow451

The court decision was predictable. I'd say again, she's in (or would be in) the wrong profession. I wouldn't trust her judgement because she's too self-absorbed. I'd look at this as God telling her to change direction.

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ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist

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ORIGINAL: cow451

The court decision was predictable. I'd say again, she's in (or would be in) the wrong profession. I wouldn't trust her judgement because she's too self-absorbed. I'd look at this as God telling her to change direction.

So how far does it go, cow? How many professions should be deemed "wrong" for those with religious convictions before it crosses the line into religious discrimination/persecution?

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ORIGINAL: cow451

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ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist

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ORIGINAL: cow451

The court decision was predictable. I'd say again, she's in (or would be in) the wrong profession. I wouldn't trust her judgement because she's too self-absorbed. I'd look at this as God telling her to change direction.

So how far does it go, cow? How many professions should be deemed "wrong" for those with religious convictions before it crosses the line into religious discrimination/persecution?

My point is not that the profession itself is wrong. It's the wrong one for this woman. There are thousands of Christians in counseling professions who are able to deal with the many challenges they face without losing their faith or morals.