|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
|
[Poll]
|
War in Iraq
|
| We are in Iraq because of oil |
|
| We are in Iraq to liberate the less fortunate |
|
| We are in Iraq to protect Israel |
|
| We are in Iraq to stop terrorists |
|
| We are in Iraq for some other reason |
|
Total Votes : 437
|
(last vote on : 11/22/2008 7:44:58 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/1/2005 10:28:01 AM
|
|
|
Goodwill
Posts: 41
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
"There is no doubt that .. Saddam Hussein has
invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate
that biological, chemical and nuclear programs
continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War
status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine
delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of
a licit missile program to develop longer-range
missiles that will threaten the United States and
our allies."
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob
Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5,2001
wow look at that date
quote:
One way or the other, we are determined to
deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass
destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That
is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
Hey another one
quote:
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use
force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously
diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass
destruction program."
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what
happens there matters a great deal here. For the
risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use
nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us
or our allies is the greatest security threat we
face."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
"He will use those weapons of mass destruction
again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, quote:
1998
"We urge you, after consulting with Congress,
and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws,
to take necessary actions (including, if
appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect
Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat
posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass
destruction programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI),
Tom Daschle (D-SD), John Kerry ( D - MA), and others Oct. 9, 1998
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the
development of weapons of mass destruction
technology which is a threat to countries in the
region and he has made a mockery of the weapons
inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on
building weapons of mass destruction and palaces
for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
"There is no doubt that .. Saddam Hussein has
invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate
that biological, chemical and nuclear programs
continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War
status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine
delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of
a licit missile program to develop longer-range
missiles that will threaten the United States and
our allies."
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob
Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001
wow thats alot of em...the whole Bush lied concept went out the door along time ago
_____________________________
"I'm part of the fellowship of the unashamed. I have the Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast. I have stepped over the line. The decision has been made - I'm a disciple of HIS.
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/1/2005 11:25:40 AM
|
|
|
JustaChristian
Posts: 49
Joined: 5/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
quote:
Can you kill someone and still love them? I do not believe so. You can't bomb someone with love. You cant put a metal bullet through someones skull with love. That is contradictory. No matter what the mindset of the soldier is, you can't both love someone and destroy them at the same time. I simply cannot agree with your thought on that.
In regards to Romans 13, check this out -- http://www.jesusradicals.com/essays/theology/Romans13.htm
God is a God of justice and vengeance? Yes, I agree. But justice and vengeance are God's job, not ours, for we are not the ones to judge - but God is the ultimate and final judge. Not us, as mere humans.
quote:
The bible tells us that there will be a time for peace and a time for war...that ends your sacreligious way of thinking right there
Hmm,
Where did *Jesus* say this? That quote is from Ecclesiastes 3:8. It is convenient to use the Old Testament Covenenant for items such as this, yet few Christians would argue that salvation comes not from Jesus' Blood but from adherance to old testament law and animal sacrifice. It seems in these days the Church is more and more reliant on old testament law and has lost faith in many of the basic tenants that Christ taught. Because they just cannot believe in the power of such New Testament teachings as the power of love over the enemy, or as forgiveness of even one's enemies, they instead move further and further from Christ, even to the point that there is a merging of Christianity and Judiasm in many Churches.
The Church is in very dangerous territory on this. Many in what was at one time a fairly sound faith, "Evangelical" and "Fundamentalist" faiths, have eroded to the point where many of the followers know less about the fundamental truths about Christ than they do what politics, lifestyle, and preferred type of worship they are expected to follow.
This is why the Lord said in Mathew 7:22:
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?"
This Prophesy is particularly relevant to this age, where there is a great apostacy entering the Church and a New Wave of "Pharisees" has grown from among the Lord's people, who purposely ignore what they consider the "Weak Knee'd" tenants of the New Covenant. They despise or minimize teachings that would require them to leave their worldly ideas of wealth, comfort, and power behind. Instead forming a new Mixed Religion of New and Old Testaments in which they "mould" the world and attempt to make it conform, instead of allowing that change inside.
Christ's teachings are unusual, and at times inconvenient, if not downright threatening to our earthly bodies.
Yet true REPENTANCE and complete acceptance of Christ's principles is nescessary! If one cannot believe Christ's words in their entirety they may still be relying on their own understanding!
Because they cannot believe Christ's words and cannot "repent" (Turn away) from their existing mindset (Worldly Principles and reliance on self and worldly power) and their worldly owner, many of this "Church" will unfortunately find themselves in a similar position. That is why it is so important to be sure that one understands who Christ truly is, and what He truly taught.
< Message edited by JustaChristian -- 8/1/2005 11:33:14 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/1/2005 12:16:27 PM
|
|
|
JustaChristian
Posts: 49
Joined: 5/20/2005
Status: offline
|
You bring some interesting quotes Goodwill. I will have to read up on them. Although posturing that occurs in congress will likely not change my mind about the Wisdom and way we went into this war. Nor about the general honesty (or lack thereof) in the way Washington is has conducted themselves.
On edit:
After reading through those, most of them are about Sadaam having the potential to be a threat, and needing to contain him. I don't think anyone is arguing that. And lots of political posturing occurs indeed to keep political will, and thus pressure, bearing down. I don't see how those quotes support the methods and manners and the way we went to war.
But then that is just an opinion.
< Message edited by JustaChristian -- 8/1/2005 12:21:18 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/1/2005 12:32:47 PM
|
|
|
Dancre
Posts: 1264
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JustaChristian
quote:
quote:
Can you kill someone and still love them? I do not believe so. You can't bomb someone with love. You cant put a metal bullet through someones skull with love. That is contradictory. No matter what the mindset of the soldier is, you can't both love someone and destroy them at the same time. I simply cannot agree with your thought on that.
In regards to Romans 13, check this out -- http://www.jesusradicals.com/essays/theology/Romans13.htm
God is a God of justice and vengeance? Yes, I agree. But justice and vengeance are God's job, not ours, for we are not the ones to judge - but God is the ultimate and final judge. Not us, as mere humans.
quote:
The bible tells us that there will be a time for peace and a time for war...that ends your sacreligious way of thinking right there
Hmm,
Where did *Jesus* say this? That quote is from Ecclesiastes 3:8. It is convenient to use the Old Testament Covenenant for items such as this, yet few Christians would argue that salvation comes not from Jesus' Blood but from adherance to old testament law and animal sacrifice. It seems in these days the Church is more and more reliant on old testament law and has lost faith in many of the basic tenants that Christ taught. Because they just cannot believe in the power of such New Testament teachings as the power of love over the enemy, or as forgiveness of even one's enemies, they instead move further and further from Christ, even to the point that there is a merging of Christianity and Judiasm in many Churches.
The Church is in very dangerous territory on this. Many in what was at one time a fairly sound faith, "Evangelical" and "Fundamentalist" faiths, have eroded to the point where many of the followers know less about the fundamental truths about Christ than they do what politics, lifestyle, and preferred type of worship they are expected to follow.
This is why the Lord said in Mathew 7:22:
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?"
This Prophesy is particularly relevant to this age, where there is a great apostacy entering the Church and a New Wave of "Pharisees" has grown from among the Lord's people, who purposely ignore what they consider the "Weak Knee'd" tenants of the New Covenant. They despise or minimize teachings that would require them to leave their worldly ideas of wealth, comfort, and power behind. Instead forming a new Mixed Religion of New and Old Testaments in which they "mould" the world and attempt to make it conform, instead of allowing that change inside.
Christ's teachings are unusual, and at times inconvenient, if not downright threatening to our earthly bodies.
Yet true REPENTANCE and complete acceptance of Christ's principles is nescessary! If one cannot believe Christ's words in their entirety they may still be relying on their own understanding!
Because they cannot believe Christ's words and cannot "repent" (Turn away) from their existing mindset (Worldly Principles and reliance on self and worldly power) and their worldly owner, many of this "Church" will unfortunately find themselves in a similar position. That is why it is so important to be sure that one understands who Christ truly is, and what He truly taught.
Oh Pleaseeee!!! talk about twisting the scriptures. can i have them back so i can iron out the wrinkles? geesh!!!
quote:
This is why the Lord said in Mathew 7:22:
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?"
i'm thinking Jesus meant those who thought they were christians b/c they went to church and didn't make Jesus their savior, not b/c they thought they needed to go to war to protect themselves.
Goodwill, would you please hand me the iron? thanks.
AS for loving your enemy, Jesus said we needed to be as gentle as doves and as wise as serpents. mat 10:16. yes walk in love, but be don't be stupid or guilable.
quote:
Because they cannot believe Christ's words and cannot "repent" (Turn away) from their existing mindset (Worldly Principles and reliance on self and worldly power) and their worldly owner, many of this "Church" will unfortunately find themselves in a similar position.
yeah, Jesus meant only going to war that's it. pleassse, GW, iron please. maybe what Jesus and Paul meant was putting off the old man with it's lusts and desires, not going to war.
as for blending the old testaments and new testaments, well, isn't God also Jesus?? isn't the old testament a shadow of the new testament? to say lets go by the new testament only is basically calling God a liar, which He isn't. And how is wanting to protect your country disobeying God? How do you know that God didn't judge Hussain by sending Bush to war? He did it in the old testament by using countries to send forth judgement on others. oh, i'm sorry, according to your religion, we ignore the OT. ok. you know, your philosophy makes no sense whatsoever and i find it quite revolting that you drag MY God into your anti-war campaign. very sad.
You see, GW, i told you they would either change the subject or have nothing to say. But this is over the top. dragging God's word into your anti-war campaign. pathetic.
kim
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/1/2005 1:18:09 PM
|
|
|
Goodwill
Posts: 41
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline
|
*Hands Dancre the iron*
_____________________________
"I'm part of the fellowship of the unashamed. I have the Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast. I have stepped over the line. The decision has been made - I'm a disciple of HIS.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/1/2005 1:19:30 PM
|
|
|
Goodwill
Posts: 41
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
After reading through those, most of them are about Sadaam having the potential to be a threat, and needing to contain him. I don't think anyone is arguing that.
Then what is the arguement? whats the discussion?
Saddam supported terrorism and helped fund some of the people (and families) of those who did the suicide bombings on the WTC... and had camps to train Terrorist and Offerred many people (of week minds) checks and told them that their families would be well taken care of if they followed through with the suicide attacks....The point of the war was to liberate countries and rid terrorism and terrorists...We are accomplishing our goals...I dont see how you cant support that...unless of course you support terrorism
< Message edited by Goodwill -- 8/1/2005 1:22:04 PM >
_____________________________
"I'm part of the fellowship of the unashamed. I have the Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast. I have stepped over the line. The decision has been made - I'm a disciple of HIS.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/1/2005 1:27:38 PM
|
|
|
JustaChristian
Posts: 49
Joined: 5/20/2005
Status: offline
|
Sorry if the Scriptures offend you.
I don't know who you are talking about when you say "they". But I am not entirely "anti-war". But the ways and wars and Pride that we are currently experiencing are not God inspired.
The old Testament, of course is God's word. But we are living under a new covenant. And Jesus has asked us to live "deeper" ethics. That was the whole reason the Pharisees dispised him. Do you think they looked any different than religious people in our time? They prayed, fasted, searched the scripture, tore their clothes and cried out to God in despair, they gave alms to the poor on ocassion, yet Jesus said they did not know the Father. I am not naive enough to think that the Pharisees did did not feel they were earnestly seeking God. But they missed him because they could never let go of the world's wisdom.
And yes, I do believe there is an apostacy movement that is throughout Evangelical and Fundamental Churches in this country that is bending scripture and bending it to their world view, and I have seen this apostacy being propagated to people in other countries. A lot of religions started out believing in the Savior. And over the last 25 or so years I have watched as the Evangelical Churches have been losing track of the primary principles of the Savior. Many Christians in the Church have hearts that despise the poor. If I could count the number of times I have heard Christians talk about the poor or homeless with Distaste or stereotyping them as Lazy. It is appalling to me that any Christian can even think that way.
Why do you find this so hard to believe? It has happened throughout History. Churches start up on a decent foundation, then move away from the truth and eventually become what we think of as "Religion". Why do you feel that our own times are so immune from this? Pride? That we can't fall? That we are "better and wiser"?
I hope you will prayerfully consider the possability. Dig into the scriptures and honestly seek to see if this is true.
Of course there are always many individuals that have not been decieved, as there will always be the wheat and the Chaff. And there are evangelical churches that are staying with Christ. But they appear to be in a minority from my research.
< Message edited by JustaChristian -- 8/1/2005 1:32:05 PM >
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/1/2005 1:43:31 PM
|
|
|
JustaChristian
Posts: 49
Joined: 5/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Saddam supported terrorism and helped fund some of the people (and families) of those who did the suicide bombings on the WTC
Wow, you have really been listening to Rush and his ilk. Even most in the right admit the lack of this connection.
There were none from Iraq aboard those airliners. Most of them were Saudis. There was some proof that one of the wives of their embassador to the US had sent money to one of them, but I have seen no proof that Sadaam.
The building up of the Wahabism sect of Islam, which was the one that al-Qaeda formed from, came from Saudi money. As we were making them rich they were "Tithing" to this group of "islamic evangelists" and trainers.
How can we ever hope to dismiss this scourge of terrorism if we don't even recognize the causes. It did not come from Iraq. Iraq has only clouded the issue.
< Message edited by JustaChristian -- 8/1/2005 2:05:04 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/1/2005 1:52:29 PM
|
|
|
Goodwill
Posts: 41
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JustaChristian
Wow, you have really been listening to Rush and his ilk. Even most in the right admit the lack of this connection.
No i dont listen to rush i cant stand him I prefer Bill or hannity... every now and then Combs..........
Why did you avoid the rest of the post...
quote:
How can we ever hope to dismiss this scourge of terrorism if we don't even recognize the causes. It did not come from Iraq. Iraq has only clouded the issue.
you need to educate yourself more
_____________________________
"I'm part of the fellowship of the unashamed. I have the Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast. I have stepped over the line. The decision has been made - I'm a disciple of HIS.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/1/2005 2:29:07 PM
|
|
|
JustaChristian
Posts: 49
Joined: 5/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
you need to educate yourself more
I have. The 9/11 commission even released a statement that there was no tie between Iraq and al-Qaida. But something tells me you probably don't believe the commission. So I doubt we can find common ground there.
I have read all about this even on very conservative sites. What I see is a lot of efforts to justify but no links.
For instance, on "Bush-Blog" a gentleman says the proof is in the comission report. He points to the line that states "With al Qaeda as its foundation, Bin Ladin sought to build a broader Islamic army that also included terrorist groups from Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Oman, Tunisia, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Morocco, Somalia and Eritrea."
He goes on to state that the commission said there was a terrorist cell probably in Iraq.
Well, no surprise there given that the country is Islamic. But that does not tie Saddam to it. In fact from everything I have read he was quite hard on Islamic extremists and they wanted him out so they could "de-secularize" Iraq.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/1/2005 2:51:20 PM
|
|
|
Dancre
Posts: 1264
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JustaChristian
Sorry if the Scriptures offend you.
What??? Try you offended me by twisting the scriptures.
quote:
I don't know who you are talking about when you say "they". But I am not entirely "anti-war". But the ways and wars and Pride that we are currently experiencing are not God inspired.
The old Testament, of course is God's word. But we are living under a new covenant. And Jesus has asked us to live "deeper" ethics. That was the whole reason the Pharisees dispised him. Do you think they looked any different than religious people in our time? They prayed, fasted, searched the scripture, tore their clothes and cried out to God in despair, they gave alms to the poor on ocassion, yet Jesus said they did not know the Father. I am not naive enough to think that the Pharisees did did not feel they were earnestly seeking God. But they missed him because they could never let go of the world's wisdom.
The pharissees missed him because they refused to see Him as the savior, not b/c they didn't let go of worldly wisdom. why do you think they crucified Him?
quote:
And yes, I do believe there is an apostacy movement that is throughout Evangelical and Fundamental Churches in this country that is bending scripture and bending it to their world view, and I have seen this apostacy being propagated to people in other countries. A lot of religions started out believing in the Savior. And over the last 25 or so years I have watched as the Evangelical Churches have been losing track of the primary principles of the Savior. Many Christians in the Church have hearts that despise the poor. If I could count the number of times I have heard Christians talk about the poor or homeless with Distaste or stereotyping them as Lazy. It is appalling to me that any Christian can even think that way.
mmm . . don't know what christians you are talking about. the ones i've come across stand up for the homeless. i think you're off track. as for following Jesus, i don't see in the scriptures where it says, don't go to war, but just pat each other on the back. Jesus said we are to TRUST in Him as savior, to Love Him. but again, you're getting off topic, a typical liberal ploy.
quote:
Why do you find this so hard to believe? It has happened throughout History. Churches start up on a decent foundation, then move away from the truth and eventually become what we think of as "Religion". Why do you feel that our own times are so immune from this? Pride? That we can't fall? That we are "better and wiser"?
b/c i see a revival crossing this land, i see people turning to Christ and giving their hearts to them.
quote:
I hope you will prayerfully consider the possability. Dig into the scriptures and honestly seek to see if this is true.
Of course there are always many individuals that have not been decieved, as there will always be the wheat and the Chaff. And there are evangelical churches that are staying with Christ. But they appear to be in a minority from my research.
Man, you are so far from the truth and you're also getting off topic. but since you brought me here, GW got that iron? If you love Jesus and truely wish to follow Him you will be more than happy to crucify your flesh. that's what Jesus meant, crucify the old man with it's lusts and desires. i suggest you study the scriptures, cause, man you are talking religion not cleansing of sins. that's why Jesus came, to cleanse us and bring us to the Father, not follow a bunch of rules and regulations. Jesus isn't a bunch of rules and goosesteps, but the Savior who took sins upon Himself so He could have a people of His own. and please, don't drag my Father and Savior into your anti-war nonsense.
kim
< Message edited by Dancre -- 8/1/2005 2:57:55 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/1/2005 3:12:00 PM
|
|
|
Goodwill
Posts: 41
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JustaChristian
quote:
you need to educate yourself more
I have.
you have not ....you have no say what so ever if you continue to believe that Iraq has no link to Terrorism...Sorry JustaChristian but maybe I was wrong and misunderstood about the 9/11 thing but Iraq absolutely had a huge part in terrorism
_____________________________
"I'm part of the fellowship of the unashamed. I have the Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast. I have stepped over the line. The decision has been made - I'm a disciple of HIS.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/1/2005 5:43:46 PM
|
|
|
JustaChristian
Posts: 49
Joined: 5/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
The pharissees missed him because they refused to see Him as the savior, not b/c they didn't let go of worldly wisdom. why do you think they crucified Him?
Certainly the Pharisees were not saved because they would not yield to Christ, but that was not Christ's primary message to them, right? He singled them out because they appeared to be following God and presented themselves thus, when really they thrived in Pride. It killed true Spirituality, and thus was destructive to God's work.
Christ was down on the Pharisees because, though they believed in God, they distorted God's word.
We have had a very innacurate idea of what is "worldly" pressed upon us. Being worldly is not about Sin! It *results* in Sin. Worldly, scripturally, means "being of the world". As apposed to being from God.
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the father is not in him. For everything in the world – the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does – comes not from the Father but from the world. (1 John 2:15-16)
A person can profess Christ and follow His commands, but if their heart is not turned to Him they are not saved. Jesus said a "Man must be "Born Again".
From the Womb we are born into the "world". We follow the world and it's Wisdom. We walk in "Pride". It is the same sin that engulfed the world in fire. It is still with us! We must accept Christ's authority and His will. But we must also be "transformed" internally, by "Repenting", Not by feeling "bad" or agreeing with God, but by turning from our Worldly Pride and Wisdom, and turning *toward* God and accepting His Wisdom.
It is taken for granted that happens whenever someone confesses and follows Christ... But it doesn't nescessarily. That is why you hear about people who say they thought they were saved for many years, and one day they realized they were truly lost.
To bring this back around to the Topic. Yes Christians should be somewhat "pansies" about War. War is a "Worldly" instrument and power. We should be internally torn to resort to it. Jesus made it clear that after the New Covenent was ushered in, war was not to be our "Weapon", but was to be reserved for Him. Much of the "Church" is so caught up in worldly ways that it is leaving behind the more powerful "tools", the Power of Christ's commandments, all rooted in Love, and going after and supporting worldly power plays and wars.
We have all but thrown out the "softer side" of Jesus because we believe it doesn't work. To the point that many Christians even support torture. Something which if you would have told me 25 years ago I would have said would never come to pass.
< Message edited by JustaChristian -- 8/1/2005 5:55:26 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/1/2005 11:25:18 PM
|
|
|
Leon_Figg3
Posts: 476
Joined: 4/24/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JustaChristian
Jesus made it clear that after the New Covenent was ushered in, war was not to be our "Weapon", but was to be reserved for Him.
Where, in the Bible does it even come close to saying that?
God is free to use whomever and whatever He chooses to exact His judgement and His vengance on whom He chooses.
We do not decide.
How do you think the last days are going to be played out?
We Christians are going to be in the thick of it like everyone else.
_______________
"Render onto Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/1/2005 11:29:47 PM
|
|
|
BoJangles
Posts: 4
Joined: 7/31/2005
From: New York
Status: offline
|
The war in Iraq is wrong.We are not in Iraq for the reasons we were led to believe,Before the war started.Many facts have come out that clearly show that we were lied to and the reasons we are there are plain evil. Jesus said those who live by the sword shall die by the sword. Over 1,700 and counting american soldiers men and woman have paid the price for these lies.Not to mention countless thousands of Iraqi's.
Many soldiers have recieved pyschological impairments,thousands of our troops are maimed loss of legs,arms etc... post traumatic stress disorder is very common I have seen in reports lately with over 30% of troops coming home with this disorder....I could go on and on,but this administration,this country,the iraqi people our troops and their familys need our prayers.They also need for this to end ! The truth about what was said and done prior to this war is coming out and this adminstration is begining to circle the drain,and people are not happy,not just here in america but around the world.
_____________________________
My sheep recognize my voice; I know them, and they follow me John 10:27
No God No Peace
Know God Know Peace
|
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/2/2005 1:14:26 AM
|
|
|
wing2000
Posts: 1029
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Are you saying this is a good thing? You seem to be ignoring the Gulf war and continually broken conditions for the cease fire.
Just simply pointing out that Sadaam did most of his abhorent deads in the 1980's...yet most of those protesting his actions now conventiently ignore that fact.
quote:
But the war occurred for a number of reasons:
9/11 - though 9/11 may not have been caused directly or indirectly by Saddam; it demonstrated that we couldn't ignore looming threats as we did in Afganistan for over a decade.
Afghanistan was a base for Al Qaeda. Iraq was not. ....and, even if prior administrations had proposed invading Afhganistan to oust the Taliban, they never would have obtained the political support to do so without a 9/11.
....and as far as looming threats, what about Iran?
quote:
Saddam's continual unwillingness to abide by the cease fire agreements following the Gulf War. The reality is America can't afford to have a Middle Eastern dictator continually flaunt his unwillingness to abide by the controls set up after a war we supposedly won.
Rogue leaders will always try to cheat. The point is, Sadaam was not a threat to our nation's security even if he did cheat. He was effectively contained...
quote:
Saddam's desire for WMDs - though Saddam may not have had WMDs at the time of our invasion, he had maintained both his chemical and nuclear science teams (why would he do that?) and never accounted for the WMD he previously had.
No doubt about his itent. And even with Biological and Chemical agents, he was still not a threat to the USA. His nuclear program was nothing to speak of...
quote:
To say he "could not have presented a viable threat to our country even if he wanted to" is of course absurd in light of the fact that 14 terrorists presented an incredible blow to our country on Sept. 11th. Saddam had many more resources available to him than Osama, was acquiring more cash through the corrupt oil for food, and hated America every bit as much as Osama.
....hating American...there are plenty of states that hate America...yet they aren't stupid enough to step on the tiger's tail. As a dictator, Sadaam was first and foremost concerned with staying in power. When American tanks rolled out of Kuwait into Iraq following Desert Storm, Sadaam was desperately afraid they would roll into Baghdad. And OBL's ideology was in direct competition with Sadaam's vision of Iraqi State power. So the prospect of Sadaam turning to OBL just doesn't add up.
quote:
...and invading Iraq did absolutely nothing to weaken Al Qaeda. Instead, the country has become a rallying cry for Islamists everywhere to oust evil infidels...(aka did we learn nothing from the Soviet experience in Afghanistan?) You can't fight terrorists with coventional armies...
Actually, anyone who compares the Soviets in Afganistan to us in Iraq didn't learn anything from that experience; we beat the Soviets in Afganistan, not terrorists.
And the opposition there was a popular revolt comprised primarily of native peoples, unlike Iraq which is primarily outside insurgency opposed by the majority of native people.
We shall see....I think US Military Commanders in Iraq would disagree with your assessment. We are fighting native insugurgents and foreign terrorists in Iraq. The same was true of the Soviets in Afghanistan.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/2/2005 9:19:49 AM
|
|
|
Goodwill
Posts: 41
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: BoJangles
The war in Iraq is wrong.We are not in Iraq for the reasons we were led to believe,Before the war started.Many facts have come out that clearly show that we were lied to and the reasons we are there are plain evil. Jesus said those who live by the sword shall die by the sword. Over 1,700 and counting american soldiers men and woman have paid the price for these lies.Not to mention countless thousands of Iraqi's.
Many soldiers have recieved pyschological impairments,thousands of our troops are maimed loss of legs,arms etc... post traumatic stress disorder is very common I have seen in reports lately with over 30% of troops coming home with this disorder....I could go on and on,but this administration,this country,the iraqi people our troops and their familys need our prayers.They also need for this to end ! The truth about what was said and done prior to this war is coming out and this adminstration is begining to circle the drain,and people are not happy,not just here in america but around the world.
Are you Insane???
What do you think we went to war for ...please tell me and do so quickly so I can correct the lie youve been told
_____________________________
"I'm part of the fellowship of the unashamed. I have the Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast. I have stepped over the line. The decision has been made - I'm a disciple of HIS.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/2/2005 1:04:54 PM
|
|
|
Dancre
Posts: 1264
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
i think i have a handle on why so many folks refuse to believe the reasons why we went to war with Iraq. So many folks like bo jangles refuse to even look at the reasons why we went to war even though the proof is there. they argue and argue, moving farther from the truth.
Here's my theory: on the writers roundtable some of us writers started a roll playing story. in order to add some interest, i threw in the al-quada and even created my own terrorist leader. i also threw in the WMD saying that my character stole them from Hussain himself. one of our players confessed that my terrorist character and the WMDs scared the s**t out of him and didn't know if he wanted to go on.
now this wonderful, talented young man opposed the war but b/c he was afraid of the possibilites of someone actually wanting to kill us, he wanted to drop out of the story. it broke my heart and made me cry to see someone so young, 18, so afraid. i'm guess the same thing applies here. i believe those who oppose the war, refuse to even consider the evidence and oppose the weapons of mass destruction are deep down inside scared to pieces, which isn't surprising, nor can we blame them.
how frightening is it to think that some madman has weapons and wants to kill us all especially after 9/11 and seeing 5,000 people instantly vaporized? then reports come in of terrorists living in the US among us, who work side by side with us and their main goal, to exterminate American citizens. How many people are terrified to watch "24" b/c it's so real? it does confuse and upset me when folks deny the war and weapons, but then i remember that talented young man who confessed his fears and it all comes together. it's like the whole world has slipped into some sort of nightmare that none of us can ever awaken. (how many of you wish for the boring 80's?) how many of you can believe it's only been 3 years since the attacks? i also think alot of folks are numbed, unable to take anymore violence. it's easier to deny it then face it, which is normal.
i also think this is where the anger comes from also. i see so many opposed to the war turn into vocanos of anger, anger comes from fear. These people see red each time war is mentioned yet wish not to look at the truth. and who can blame them? it's mind boggling to think that such things can happen here, that the UN was taking money from Hussain so they would drop the restrictions and he would continue with his weapons program. it sounds like a clancy novel. this stuff doesn't happen in real life. it's horrifying to hear someone screaming for his life just before he is beheaded. this isn't suppose to happen in real life. sometimes when i think about all of this, i want to run away and hide.
so i guess (and i'm talking to me mostly) maybe we should try to see what's setting these folks off, their refusal to see the truth, to look at the evidence. instead they believe silly things like we went to war for oil or bush wanted to improve the polls. those are safe excuses, but not the thought of someone wanting to wipe us off the planet. i think it all comes down to one word, fear. so maybe we should give these anti-war folks a break, unless i'm totally off. so anti-war folks, be truthful. tell us what you're REALLY feeling deep down inside, not what seems safe to you. be nice to each other.
kim
|
|
|
|
|
RE: War in Iraq - 8/2/2005 2:20:05 PM
|
|
|
Goodwill
Posts: 41
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline
|
TO justachristian and boJangles and friends....read this story
The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at
war. My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and
I were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve
and defend our Country again today. I knew that my husband would give
him a good explanation.
My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my son to go stand
in our front living room window. He said "Son, stand there and tell me
what you see?"
"I see trees and cars and our neighbor's houses." he replied.
"OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the
United States of America and you are President Bush."
Our son giggled and said "OK."
"Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every
house and yard on this block is a different country" my husband said.
"OK, Dad, I'm pretending."
"Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and pretend you
see Saddam come out of his house with his wife. He has her by the hair
and is hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the
face, he throws her on the ground, then he starts to kick her to
death. Their children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are
screaming and crying, they are watching this but do nothing because they
are kids and they are afraid of their father. You see all of this
son.... what do you do?"
"Dad?"
"What do you do son?"
"I'd call the police, Dad."
"OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take your
call, listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help. What do
you do then, son?"
"Dad.......... but the police are supposed to help!" My son starts to
whine.
"They don't want to son, because they say that it is not their place or
your place to get involved and that you should stay out of it," my
husband says.
"But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.
"I know he did...but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want
you to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor who you're
pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to his children."
"Daddy...he kills them?"
"Yes son, he does. What do you do?"
"Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door
neighbor to help me stop him." our son says.
"Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get
involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my
husband says.
"But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!"
"WHAT DO YOU DO, SON?" Our son starts to cry.
"OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for
help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and
puffs out his chest. Guess what he does next, son?"
"What Daddy?"
"He walks across the street to the old lady's house and breaks down her
door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire
and then...he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing in the
window and laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?"
"Daddy..."
"WHAT DO YOU DO?"
Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers, "I'd close the
blinds, Daddy."
My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him, "Why?"
"Because, Daddy.....the police are supposed to help people who need
them...and they won't help.... you always say that neighbors are
supposed to HELP neighbors, but they won't help either...they won't help
me stop him...I'm afraid....I can't do it by myself, Daddy....I can't
look out my window and just watch him do all these terrible things
and...and.....do nothing...so....I'm just going to close the blinds...so
I can't see what he's doing........and I'm going to pretend that it is
not happening."
I start to cry.
My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window,
looking pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husband's questions and
he says, "Son."
"Yes, Daddy."
"Open the blinds, because that man.... he's at your front door. "WHAT
DO YOU DO?"
My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up
his tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without
hesitation he says: "I'D DEFEND MY FAMILY, DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM
HURT MOMMY OR MY SISTER, DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA
FIGHT HIM!!!!!"
I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs our son to his
chest and hugs him tight, and says... "It's too late to fight him, he's
too strong and he's already at YOUR front door, son.....you should have
stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife, and his children and the old lady
across the way. You have to do what's right, even if you have to do it
alone, before it's too late," my husband whispers.
THAT scenario I just gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good
men stand by and let evil happen, THAT is the greatest EVIL of all.
Our President is doing what is right. We, as a free nation, must
understand that this war is a war of humanity. WE must remove evil men
from power so that we can continue to live in a free world where we are
not afraid to look out our window so that my nine year old son won't
grow up in a world where he feels that if he just "closes" the blinds
the atrocities in the world won't affect him.
"YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO
IT ALONE!" BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN! BE PROUD OF OUR
TROOPS!! SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT AMERICA SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR
CHILDREN WILL NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR BLINDS..."
_____________________________
"I'm part of the fellowship of the unashamed. I have the Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast. I have stepped over the line. The decision has been made - I'm a disciple of HIS.
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
