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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 7:54:18 AM
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FolkSingerBlues
Posts: 557
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I will remind you all once again that omnipresence is the most overlooked attribute of God.
Reformed Theology is a nice riddle to contemplate within the confines of it's limited atonement but totally overlooks the omnipresence of God and the place of true sovereignty.
Omnipresence equally destroys the Arminianist theology, again it places God actively at work in the confines of the creation God brought us into.
God remains sovereign, omniscient, it places a clearer understanding on foreknowledge and predestination. It places the Bible in the correct position as God's message to man, not man's idea of God.
Reformed theology in it's dogmatic view is kissing cousins with deism. Deism being oversimplified by defining it "There is a God but it doesn't care." Reformed theology get's extremely close to a similar view of God creating the perfect "clock" with it's outcome and future set in place and he has removed himself from it. Waiting for those who have been "elected" to come to repentance while he does his cosmic nails somewhere off in the spiritual distance. Limiting the action of his power, sovereignty and ability to make all things work to his glory, by explaining that there on only an "elect" few that he can tend to.
I just wish that many of you would step away from this superstitiousness and begin to read the Bible with the Spirits leading rather than continuously filling your brains with the depraved view of this god that depraves God of his true glory, honor, justice and love.
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 7:56:59 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
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Sovereign,
After a re-reading of that passage (Jer 18:7-10) and looking back at
Ex 32:14, Amos 7:1-6 and Jer 26:3, I don't think God changes his
mind in the same way we do.
Rather God changes his response based on the choice a man makes.
These passages, particularly Jer 18, show us God is setting forth
conditions and what he will do ....if, then, if, then.
Further on in Jeremiah 19:5 he declares the Lord said the people
did something he never commanded and never entered his mind.
I just think it is clear that God responds to the free will decisions of man.
Arguing about whether God's foreknowledge makes them certain or not is
not the point - the point is God relates and interacts with man, who is often
stiff-necked and obstinate.
Stiff necked and obstinate, but possessing no free will to reject? How is it possible?
So as for "God changed his mind", lets say God retains the right to
change his original plan based on what men do as free agents.
This explains why God said he was sorry he ever created man.
Men screwed it up. It was not God's "original recipe".
Pride, arrogance, rejection, and egotism are all qualities of man's nature
that affect our decisions within the boundaries of God's will.
I am constantly brought back to "Who can be saved?" and the answer
we give will reveal how we understand the character of God.
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men,
so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also
through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. Rom 5:18-19
Every time God justifies a sinner, his fate has changed because God's response
to that person has changed - he will go from death to life because he met the
conditions set forth and the wrathful judgment of God will not fall on him.
Did God "change his mind" - thankfully, yes!
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 8:04:10 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
RWE: Why would God regret anything he did if he determines everything?
SovIsHe: He doesn't regret...
Gen 6:6
The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Please explain to why your statement is true?
Why was he sorry he ever created man? What picture of God is this for a determinist?
Its quite a clear meaning if man has free will.
Was he sorry for what man did? Again, what can this mean for a determinist?
Again, quite a clear meaning if free will is true.
You love anthropomorhisms rwe !!!
Why do you continually attempt to make
God like you and make Him smaller ?
This behavior of re-inventing God, and
conforming Him in your image is baffling.
Why are you doing it ? Are you = to God ?
Isn't God UN-like you and I ??? YES !!!
Your God isn't really Omnipotent...
Why do you insult Him by saying He:
---changes His mind
---makes mistakes
----doubts Himself
---wonders and questions
You don't depict God as God.
You have someone like you !!!
You have made God into a patsy !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 8:04:28 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: quixote
quote:
The "if" denotes potential. IF they believe, they will NOT die in their sins. but, IF they don't believe, they WILL die in their sins.
Not at all. It's better understood as an if/then proposition. If you believe not, you will die in your sins.
Every "if...then" proposition IS a potential. IF you DO believe, THEN you will NOT die in your sins. Or, IF you do NOT believe, THEN you WILL die in your sins. Both statements reflect potential. The outcome (then) is based on the premise (if). There are 2 "ifs", and 2 "outcomes". Whichever "if" is chosen determines which "outcome" occurs.
quote:
"Can you explain WHY Jesus promised to the so-called "non-elect" that they would NOT die in their sins IF they believed in Him?"
Your admission of re-phrasing the text is telling at this point.
Well, can you explain WHY? What is very "telling" on this thread is that not one of the calvinists is able to give a reasonable explanation for what Jesus said. He WAS evangelizing the so-called "non-elect", yet calvinism claims the gospel was NOT for them. Obviously, Jesus disagrees with calvinism.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 8:13:25 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
If you dig a little deeper, though, you'll realize that free will is a misnomer. We really don't have free will.
You are correct about "free will". The real issue is that man has "freedom of choice" which is God given. The term "free will" suggests that man can "change his spots", change his environment, such as weather, etc, and a host of other nonsense. The ONLY issue of being free in in what man thinks. And God created man to think freely.
quote:
God's sovereign will always overrides ours. That's the main reason why our will isn't truly free.
Quite true! I don't think anyone on this thread who is non-reformed disagrees with this.
quote:
That's also why a couple of people have referred to primary and secondary causes.
The primary problem for dalvinism is its insistence that God causes everything. Because that must include sin, and God does NOT cause sin. No way, no how.
Because man was created with an intellect that freely thinks, man IS the primary cause of sin. Just as Satan was the primary cause of his "original" sin in eternity past in his rebellion against God.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 8:22:47 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1684
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shemaromans,
quote:
God saves and God hardens hearts--all according to his good and perfect will to the glory of his praise.
Amen to that!
Even entire kingdoms are in His hands like stone tokens on a chess board.
Heaven really rules!
Nebuchadnezzar found out the hard way and I suppose God might not humble all the proud right away.
Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes. The command to leave the stump of the tree with its roots means that your kingdom will be restored to you when you acknowledge that Heaven rules.
I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever. His dominion is an eternal dominion; his kingdom endures from generation to generation.
All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"
quote:
I searched under "purpose" and these two jumped out at me.
"And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth." --Rev 17:16-18
Yes, that is very powerful text and Amen to that!
How dare God put it in their hearts to carry out His purpose. We are going to have chalk that up on His record as one more "free-will" violation. He is going to have to answer to a lot of people on that one. Who does this guy think He is......God? 
quote:
"Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever." --Eph 3:20
Amen! To Him be the glory.
To Him who is ABLE TO DO far more abundantly than all that we ask or think.....according to the power working in us.
Let me guess....the text must be telling us about the powerful free-will always working in us?
quote:
Then this popped into my mind:
"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." --Galatians 2:20-21
I think Someone popped that into your mind....but hey, that would be a form of mind control and a genuine cosmic violation. LOL
quote:
What this made me think of is how we can't fulfill the law. The first commandment: You shall have no other Gods before me. Through our sinful natures, we naturally make ourselves Gods and put ourselves before God. We automatically fail to fulfill the law given our sinful natures. We don't even have to look at the other nine commandments!
Exactly!
And it flows and follows through to all the aspects of our rotten wills....our sinful nature.
It is one thing to think a little girl can freely choose mayo, mustard, hotdogs, tuna salad, toppings on pizza, different ice cream.......etc. In the sphere of total reality whoop de do.
When it comes time to meet our Maker what could we say about that?
What would God say if we used all that nonsense as some sort of credit to ourselves and our ability?
The real trick would be trying to get the girl to always choose freely what she hates and does not like.
That is in essence of what free-willers do not understand.
People are naturally against God and not naturally for Him. People are naturally enemies of God.
That is how things are and that is why a natural man does not accept things pertaining to God naturally.
The natural man (including little girls) do not accept the things of the Spirit as it is all foolishness to him.
Free-willers suppose that everybody has this special will-power in them that is just sitting there neutral and is able to pop one way or another freely.
They suppose that unbelievers can just all of a sudden freely-will to believe what they dont believe.
Try to get a free-willer to freely believe Calvinism. That cant do it!
Their wills are in bondage to what they perceive just like ours are in bondage to what we perceive.
I cant freely choose to believe what they believe with all the effort and will power I could muster up on my best day! I dont even want to believe it so why would I will to? I will be the first one to claim to them I dont have the will to freely believe what they believe.
They say their wills are free but they cant even demonstrate it to themselves! 
Ask them to believe in Calvinism and they will sit there and divert the topic to things like "Well Calvinism is a lie"......."I made my free-choice already"......"I base my choice on facts"...etc.....but they will never stay on track and demonstrate they have the ability to do what they just CANNOT do!
And yet they will claim unbelievers can freely change to believe what they dont believe.
quote:
Holding onto the notion that we're somehow able to choose to believe when we are bound in our sin, when scripture tells us that no one can please God, that we're slaves to the flesh...I just don't understand how, given that, we somehow can be capable of choosing to believe without God first working within us. And then I read 1 Cor 2:14 that says: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
And then I read what you wrote to Odeliya. How did you enter my mind? I could have written that myself...
But all praise and glory be to God.
No way......you entered mine and I am calling the thought police! LOL
I think we think alike.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 8:33:56 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
umcbee, FreeGrace,
...you added this kind of stuff to John 8.......while you subtracted all kinds of other stuff that you dont like hearing.
Excellent post, KJB.
No, it wasn't. No one "added" anything to John 8. And no one "subtracted" anything from John 8. He just won't deal with what's there.
Therefore, his post was dishonest.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 8:39:20 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
FreeGrace,
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
What is your point here? As sovereign God, He alone holds all rights to His creatures. So when He takes someone out of this world, that is His sovereign right. How He does it is irrelevant.
I don't agreement with your assessment of John 8 and your critique of Calvinism, but...
Before your "but", I'm fine with you disagreeing with me on John 8, but why can't you answer WHY Jesus evangelized the so-called "non-elect", when calvinism claims the gospel is NOT for the so-called "non-elect"?
quote:
Your quote states that God can do what he wants to do. Given that, why would you question the reason WHY Jesus said what he did to the non-elect if he's sovereign God and alone holds all rights to his creatures?
Because calvinism claims that the gospel is ONLY for the "elect" and not for the "non-elect". Calvinism cannot answer WHY He did. All you've got is to say "God is God, and can do what He wants", which doesn't answer the WHY question.
Yet, the free will pov DOES answer the WHY question. The REASON Jesus evangelized the so-called "non-elect" is because the gospel is for EVERYONE, not just the so-called "elect".
When the Bible says "whosoever believes", it means anyone from the human race. Calvinism claims christ died ONLY for the so-called "elect", therefore, the gospel cannot be for everyone.
But, Jesus demonstrated unarguably that the gospel is for EVERYONE. And calvinsim cannot answer WHY.
quote:
You appear to have contradicted yourself, brother.
Please clarify, because I haven't.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 9:12:27 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1774
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
I don't deny their efforts , I simply deny that what they present is Godly Biblical truth .
So if a Calvinist commentary said in it somewhere that Christ is God the Son, they would be wrong?
Listen , I don't question the salvation of Calvinists , I've never said they were heretics . It is their theology that I deny as Biblical truth ; mainly the TULIP .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 9:14:22 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
shemaromans,
quote:
If you dig a little deeper, though, you'll realize that free will is a misnomer. We really don't have free will. God's sovereign will always overrides ours. That's the main reason why our will isn't truly free. That's also why a couple of people have referred to primary and secondary causes.
Some really good points there.
How do free-willers explain that God sent a lying spirit to men to cause them to lie?
God is the first cause.....a lying spirit is the second cause......the lying men are the last cause of a lie which is sin.
The whole context of your verses is 1 Kings 22:1-40. Ahab hated Micaiah (22:8), who was the ONLY prophet who spoke the truth from the Lord. All the other "prophets" simply told Ahab what he wanted to hear. Those "prophets" weren't from the Lord, obviously, so they were quite susceptible to demon influence/possession. God's will was to pass judgment on Ahab, and He accomplished that through the battle in which he died. Which Miaaiah prophesied that he would. God caused judgment to fall on Ahab. The sin of lying was caused by the demon who volunteered to "entice" the men to say what Ahab wanted to hear.
quote:
21"Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
I present to you the primary cause of the lie. God simply allowed that demon to entice the men to lie. He is NOT the "first cause" of the sin. That is utter nonsense.
quote:
22"The LORD said to him, 'How?' And he said, 'I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.'
Apparently calvinists see this as some kind of direct "command" to entice. Yet, from the context, we can see very easily that God was simply allowing the demon who volunteered to entice to do so.
quote:
23"Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you."[/color]
Actually, God "allowed" a demon to be in the mouth of the evil prophets, as part of His plan to judge Ahab. He did NOT cause the lying to accur. He allowed it to occur.
quote:
I am sure they freely lied even though it was God, a spirit, and men that caused it.
God did NOT cuase it. He allowed it. The difference is huge.
quote:
Free-willers cant even prove what they claim they have.
Are you free to think your own thoughts, or is someone else making you think the thoughts that you do? If you admit you freely think your own thoughts, free free, as in freedom to think, is proven.
However, if you admit that someone else is making you think the thoughts that you think, I think you have a very serious problem.
quote:
How can free-willers even prove that no force in the entire universe is causing them to choose mayo rather than mustard?
How can any calvinist prove that any force in the universe DOES cause them to choose mayo over mustard? What a ridiculous example!
quote:
How can they prove that no invisible power moves them one way or another?
How can any calvinist prove that God is causing their every step? Not from Scripture. Yes, God will direct our steps. But we have to be willing.
quote:
How can they claim their wills are free and nothing in all of creation secretly moves their wills without them even knowing it?
The real issue is freedom of thought, not the misnomer we call the "will". So, your statement here is irrelevant.
quote:
The most that they could honestly claim is that they are not certain if their wills are free or not because they are not capable of seeing every invisible force and power in the universe at work. If they could at least admit the truth that they dont know for certain if their wills are free or are being moved because they cannot see all things......at least then they would be ready to learn and teachable.
We've already admitted that the issue is NOT the will, which is certainly NOT free, but that we ARE free to think our own thoughts, which include what we believe and reject. That is what the calvinists are in error over.
quote:
Its like they are sitting there telling us over and over that they can walk through brick walls but none of them can ever demonstrate it.
If you really think "its like" that, then all I can say is you have serious problems with grasping reality. The very thing you are suggesting is so outrageous as to be irrational. You really think that free willers think they can "walk through brick walls"? If you do, the only word that comes to my mind is delusional.
quote:
They claim it is by their own wills that they have faith. They simply will to have faith and it is easy.
No one has said that. That is just the on-going mischaracterization that the calvinists continue to play. "Having faith" is simply believing what God has said. All men are created and equipped to process what God says, and have the freedom to either believe it or reject it.
quote:
I have given them a simple test before that they could try on themselves and it does not seem to work.
If they seem to think that their faith is from their own free-will it should be just as easy to freely will to have lots of faith as it would be to have little faith.
Your failure to distinguish between freedom of thought vs freedom of the will is why you don't understand.
quote:
If their wills are so free and there is nothing in all of creation that restricts this free-will they claim to have, it should be very easy for them to have faith more than that of a mustard seed.
This charge is baseless and nonsense. Jesus even commented on the various amounts of faith that people expressed. He chided His own disciples for their lack of faith. that in itself demonstrates the faulty thinking of calvinism, which claims that all faith is given by God. If that is so, then WHY did Jesus chide His own disciples for their lack of faith? Why didn't He chide God Himself for not giving His own disciples more faith?
To others, He praised them for their great faith. If calvinism is true, WHY didn't He praise God Himself for having given them that great faith?
But, once again, calvinism just doesn't have any answers to these questions.
quote:
Any of them could prove their faith comes from their free-will by freely-willing to have enough faith to move a mountain.
This isn't a test. It is a lame application of faulty thinking.
quote:
It should be a very easy task indeed UNLESS there is something that BINDS their wills.
My freedom of thought has NOTHING to do with moving mountains, if you hadn't noticed.
quote:
The point of the story is that they do not see that it is God that gives faith.
Disproven by Jesus chiding His own disciples for their lack of faith rather than chiding His Father for not giving His own disciples more faith, and His praising others for their great faith, rather than praising His Father for giving them that great faith.
quote:
God gives faith in amounts that He wills.
Oh, I see. Yet, Jesus chided His own disciples for their lack of faith, and praised others for their great faith. If God is the one who gives faith in the first place, WhY didn't Jesus chide and praise His Father for the various amounts of faith that He saw in others? Calvinism cannot explain that.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 9:26:57 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
KJB
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
...
It should be a very easy task indeed UNLESS there is something that BINDS their wills.
...
The point of the story is that they do not see that it is God that gives faith.
God gives faith in amounts that He wills.
And a little faith (less than that of a mustard seed) in a faithful God is more than enough and always better than having tons and tons of faith in the human will.
Good points.
No, shema, they were faulty points. The issue is NOT the misnomer "free will" but freedom of thought, which includes believing and rejecting.
quote:
Two things really stood out: God's will and God granting faith/ability.
Can you explain WHY Jesus chided His very own disciples for their lack of faith while praising others for their great faith, IF God is the ONLY grantor of faith? Also, WHY didn't Jesus chide and praise His own Father for the various amounts of faith He observed in others? If calvinism were true, it would only make sense for Him to give all accountability to God for the faith of others. Yet, he chided and praised people for their faiths. Odd, huh!
quote:
Holding onto the notion that we're somehow able to choose to believe when we are bound in our sin, when scripture tells us that no one can please God,
sorry to cut off your sentence, but the errors keep getting deeper. In the first place, we are only "bound in our sin" because of whom we choose to present ourselves to obey, per Rom 6:16. Secondly, the correct statement is "no one can please God without faith". Please note ALL of what Heb 11:6 says. Seems many calvinists like to just quote the PART of a verse to support their pov, rather than the whole verse for context.
quote:
that we're slaves to the flesh...I just don't understand how, given that, we somehow can be capable of choosing to believe without God first working within us.
What calvinism completely rejects is that the method that God uses to "work within us" is seen when He reveals Truth to mankind, as Romans 1 declares. So, non-calvinists acknowledge that God works in people before they come to believe, but man is NOT a puppet, and God isn't pulling their strings, as the calvinists think He does. He simply reveals truth to man. And He created man free to think. Think about it.
quote:
And then I read 1 Cor 2:14 that says: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
The VERY FACT that there are many unbelievers who DO understand the gospel clearly and yet reject it proves that your understanding of this text is in error. The text says "not able to understand", and since many unbelievers DO understand the gospel, it should be obvious to any serious student of the Word that the gospel is NOT being referred to here.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 10:02:18 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1774
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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KJB ,
quote:
Christians should not preach the way you preach period.
We shouldn't tell them the truth ?
We shouldn't tell them that God loves each and every one of them , and desires to save each and every one them , and that Christ died for each and every one them , and tell each and every one them that their sin debt has been paid in full , and that this message of the gospel is for each and every one of them .
So go tell Billy Graham he's wrong to preach the way I do . He preaches the same Biblical Gospel that I preach .
quote:
How can you tell everybody their debt has been paid in full if some of them are going to hell?
Because I preach Christ and Him crucified : And he is the propitiation for our sins : and not for ours only , but also for the sins of the whole world .
But we see Jesus , who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death , crowned with glory and honor ; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man .
For God so loved the world , that he gave his only begotten Son , that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life .
But these are written , that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ , the Son of God ; and that believing ye might have life theough his name .
And that it shall come to pass , that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved .
For if through the offence of one many be dead , much more the grace of God , and the gift by grace , which is by one man , Jesus Christ , hath abounded unto many .
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men .
That was the true Light , which lighteth every man that cometh into the world .
Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth .
quote:
It would be a flat out lie.
According to Calvinism , yes ; but not according to the Word of God .
quote:
Calvinists should not preach the way you preach either
Then why do they when they are evangalizing unbelievers ?
quote:
There is nothing wrong with telling a crowd the truth.
When Calvinists are evangalizing unbelievers , they are telling the crowd the truth . Then , when they have them behind the closed doors of their church , they contradict the truth they spoke to them in public by endoctrination into Calvinism .
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The truth is that out of all the people in the crowd whether the crowd contains 1000 or 100 billion.....all those that the Father gives to His Son WILL come to His Son.
All those not given will never come.
All those appointed to eternal life will at some point in His time believe.
There is no doubt at all.
Then why doesn't the Calvinist evangalist preach that to the crowd he is evangalizing ?
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Jesus preached in John 8 and I dont see all these additional phrases that you both supplied and added.
Phrases like these;
God loves each and every one of them , and desires to save each and every one them , and that Christ died for each and every one them , and tell each and every one them that their sin debt has been paid in full , and that this message of the gospel is for each and every one of them
They are not found in John 8 ; but here they are again :
And he is the propitiation for our sins : and not for ours only , but also for the sins of the whole world .
But we see Jesus , who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death , crowned with glory and honor ; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man .
For God so loved the world , that he gave his only begotten Son , that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life .
But these are written , that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ , the Son of God ; and that believing ye might have life theough his name .
And that it shall come to pass , that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved .
For if through the offence of one many be dead , much more the grace of God , and the gift by grace , which is by one man , Jesus Christ , hath abounded unto many .
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men .
That was the true Light , which lighteth every man that cometh into the world .
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Clearly Jesus Christ was much more honest and blunt in what He said compared to what you both added to what He said!
Do you exclude the above as Christ's word ?
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The problem with the both of you is that you added this kind of stuff to John 8;.....God loves each and every one of them , and desires to save each and every one them , and that Christ died for each and every one them , and tell each and every one them that their sin debt has been paid in full , and that this message of the gospel is for each and every one of them.......while you subtracted all kinds of other stuff that you dont like hearing.
In your zeal to rebuke , you are confused , neither FG nor I said those words are found in John 8 ; they are found however in Scripture , as is evident from the ones I quoted .
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kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 10:05:46 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1723
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Listen , I don't question the salvation of Calvinists , I've never said they were heretics . It is their theology that I deny as Biblical truth ; mainly the TULIP .
Wonderful to hear! Thanks for the clarification. You had me genuinely concerned for a moment there.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 10:09:29 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
The real trick would be trying to get the girl to always choose freely what she hates and does not like.
That is in essence of what free-willers do not understand.
No, the real essence is that calvinists do not understand what is meant by "free will". It has nothing to do with choosing what one hates. That isn't even relevant, yet the calvinists continue along their merry way thinking so.
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People are naturally against God and not naturally for Him. People are naturally enemies of God.[/quoe]
Since God created mankind to seek Him, it IS within their natures to do so. Yet calvinism denies that.
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Free-willers suppose that everybody has this special will-power in them that is just sitting there neutral and is able to pop one way or another freely.
There is no issue with "will-power". The issue is with freely thinking. Here, KJB even suggests that people cannot change their minds, which is ludicrous.
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They suppose that unbelievers can just all of a sudden freely-will to believe what they dont believe.
It's generally understand as changing the mind. But, the calvinists think they can't even change their own minds, but must wait for some other "power" to do that!
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They say their wills are free but they cant even demonstrate it to themselves!
If you have ever changed your own mind about anything, free will IS proven. Because by "free will" we mean free to think your own thoughts.
Although, maybe, calvinists really ARE puppets, just waiting around (hanging around  ) waiting for their strings to be pulled, and thoughts to be put into their skulls. 
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but they will never stay on track and demonstrate they have the ability to do what they just CANNOT do!
What's "on track" with "having the ability to what they cannot do"? That isn't even coherent.
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And yet they will claim unbelievers can freely change to believe what they dont believe.
Again, it's called changing the mind, something puppets cannot do, nor understand.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 10:18:49 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
KJB ,
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Christians should not preach the way you preach period.
We shouldn't tell them the truth ?
We shouldn't tell them that God loves each and every one of them , and desires to save each and every one them , and that Christ died for each and every one them , and tell each and every one them that their sin debt has been paid in full , and that this message of the gospel is for each and every one of them .
KJB has said "no", even though Jesus evangelized everyone, which is contrary to his very own theology.
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So go tell Billy Graham he's wrong to preach the way I do . He preaches the same Biblical Gospel that I preach .
Yes, and KJB would probably tell BG he is wrong, if he had the chance.
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How can you tell everybody their debt has been paid in full if some of them are going to hell?
Because I preach Christ and Him crucified : And he is the propitiation for our sins : and not for ours only , but also for the sins of the whole world .
And we preach that "some of them are going to hell" simply because they [u[]won't believe, just as Jesus warned the crowd in John 8:24.
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But we see Jesus , who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death , crowned with glory and honor ; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man .
That is the very REASON evangelized everyone. He tasted death for every man.
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For God so loved the world , that he gave his only begotten Son , that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life .
The very REASON Jesus DID evangelize everyone.
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Calvinists should not preach the way you preach either
Then why do they when they are evangalizing unbelievers ?
Excellent question. Their answer is because they don't know who the elect are. Yet, they CANNOT answer WhY Jesus evangelized the so-called "non-elect" and He is omniscient and doesn't have that excuse that the calvinists use.
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In your zeal to rebuke , you are confused , neither FG nor I said those words are found in John 8 ; they are found however in Scripture , as is evident from the ones I quoted .
Typical tactic of the calvinist. Charge US with "adding" to a particular text, but then when WE ask them to explain a particular verse, THEY immediately quote other verses. Go figure.
Great post, Bee!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 10:48:53 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1774
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Shem ,
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First off, the Holy Spirit is God, so He can speak to someone whenever he wants.
Agreed , its just hard for the hearer to hear when filling their mind with something else .
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Another thing, RT adamantly claims Sola Scriptura, basing all of its beliefs on the word of God. Scripture isn't missing.
So do JW's , and many other sects . I agree that RT even provides very accurate quotes from Scripture , the problem lies in their interpretations of those Scripture's .
And yes , Scripture is missing , they conveniently exclude Scripture's I quoted to KJB in my above post ; you simply will not find them in their confession's nor their theology .
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Are we (or our pastors) supposed to distinguish between sprinking and immersion when presenting the gospel?
Some denominations do and some don't : however , Baptism is the point , not the means of applying it .
Besides , you missed the whole point : which is , why does the Calvinist evangalist not preach the doctrines of election and passing over the rest , or God not loving the majority enough to give them the gift of faith . Those are pillars (thanks for the correction) of his theology ; why would he so conveniently skip over them in his message ?
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RT's don't look at it that way. We (at least I) don't believe that God loves us (me) more than others.
Well there are plenty in your camp on this thread that do believe that , and have stated the same .
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We also don't know who are the elect and who are not, but we know that God wants us to preach what Jesus preached.
That is typical Calvinist rhetoric about the elect . Then why not preach what Jesus preached ; like : Come unto me , all ye that labor and are heavy laden , and I will give you rest . Or : For had ye believed Moses , ye would have believed me : for he wrote of me . And : Thomas , because thou hast seen me , thou hast believed : blessed are they that have not seen , and yet have believed .
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We're simply to tell of how we're sinners and that Jesus offers the solution. The rest is in God's hands. His children/his sheep will hear and believe when he makes it possible for them to hear. The others won't understand because they're destined to not understand.
And that's apart of the Calvinist theology that you will never hear the Calvinist evangalist proclaim to a crowd of unbelievers . And its not what Christ preached .
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We believe the Bible clearly speaks of election.
So do I , but not in the Calvinist understanding of it .
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It also clearly addresses our spiritual depravity.
It addresses our spiritual separation from God , not spiritual depravity .
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God knows that our natural natures which are in bondage to sin will not be capable to choose to believe.
That is Calvinist presupposition and not Scriptural fact . No where in Scripture does God declare that .
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Better to definitely save some than Jesus' sacrifice to be for naught.
More Calvinist rhetoric , I don't know of a nicer way to state it .
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(Isn't it pillars of theology? I've never heard of pillows of theology.)
Yes , and thanks again for the correction , I've never claimed to be a very good wordsmith .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 11:42:48 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1774
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
When it comes time to meet our Maker what could we say about that?
What would God say if we used all that nonsense as some sort of credit to ourselves and our ability?
Don't know about that , but under your theology there's going to a humungous crowd standing there saying , Why do you find me guilty , you never gave me faith , you condemned me before the foundation of the world , you never gave me an opportunity to be saved , you made it impossible for me to be saved , and on and on and on .
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People are naturally against God and not naturally for Him. People are naturally enemies of God.
That's why God was in Christ , reconcilling the world to Himself . Thats what propitiation means , God has now been propitiated towards man .
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They suppose that unbelievers can just all of a sudden freely-will to believe what they dont believe.
You obviously didn't read what FG wrote . We don't will ourselves to believe . We simply choose what to believe .
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Try to get a free-willer to freely believe Calvinism. That cant do it!
Not a matter of can't , its a matter of won't . And I do freely believe in Calvinism , and that its faulty .
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Their wills are in bondage to what they perceive just like ours are in bondage to what we perceive.
Ahhhh.......the Calvinist philisophical mind , not very Scriptural , but very philisophical .
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I cant freely choose to believe what they believe with all the effort and will power I could muster up on my best day! I dont even want to believe it so why would I will to?
Its not that you can't freely choose to believe it , its because you freely choose to not want to believe it . You said so yourself .
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Ask them to believe in Calvinism and they will sit there and divert the topic to things like "Well Calvinism is a lie"......."I made my free-choice already"......"I base my choice on facts"...etc.....but they will never stay on track and demonstrate they have the ability to do what they just CANNOT do!
Sounds to me like solid facts for rejecting Calvinism , not an attempt to divert the topic . You ask me to believe things God didn't want me to believe , if He had , He'd have made a Calvinist out of me .
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And yet they will claim unbelievers can freely change to believe what they dont believe.
If you don't believe I can bust you nose , but then I walk up to you and bust your nose , I'll bet you can and will freely change your mind that I couldn't bust your nose to begin with . 
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And yet they will claim unbelievers can freely change to believe what they dont believe.
Thats not what we will claim . We will claim that unbelievers can freely make a choice to believe .
How else will an unbeliever become a believer unless he chooses to believe ?
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 12:05:44 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
But i am open to true answers to questions, and will definitely give RT the benefit of the doubt. But it has to be better then empty rhetoric, preacherese and misrepresentation of FW that brother KJ posts .
( KJ you know i love you brother - i criticize you for what i believe is your weakest point. but if your love for brethren depends on if they agree or not on such minor thing as your C theology - then i surely overestimated you)
Del, your criticism of KJ was correct and deserved. He persistently misprepresents what Bee and I present, and argues against that for some unknown reason.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 12:20:04 PM
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Diolectic
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From: Iowa
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