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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 10:45:35 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1684
Joined: 12/2/2006
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FreeGrace,
quote:
We've already admitted that the issue is NOT the will, which is certainly NOT free, but that we ARE free to think our own thoughts, which include what we believe and reject. That is what the calvinists are in error over.
For someone that has posted page after page after page promoting "free-will" you still never cease to amaze me. 
Ok.....hold that 'thought' of yours up there in the quote box.
You are claiming that you were free to think your own thoughts and by thinking your own thoughts you thought you would turn to Jesus Christ.
You are still as wrong as wrong can be.
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts.
Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Your thoughts were in obedience to your sinful nature which was disobedience.
The sinful nature does not "think" faith.
If your 'thoughts' were somehow 'thinking' faith you would not have been considered an object of wrath.
This is of course unless you were somehow so very different than all the 'rest'?
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 10:48:57 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3831
Joined: 3/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
Your quote states that God can do what he wants to do. Given that, why would you question the reason WHY Jesus said what he did to the non-elect if he's sovereign God and alone holds all rights to his creatures?
quote:
You appear to have contradicted yourself, brother.
Please clarify, because I haven't.
You stated plainly that God can do what he wants to do and then you question why Jesus said what he did to whom he did. Jesus is God. By questioning Jesus' motives, you're ignoring his right (that you said he has) to do what he wants.
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 11:05:32 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1684
Joined: 12/2/2006
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shemaromans,
quote:
Genesis 6:5
“The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”
Flooding causes all thoughts to become clean. LOL
quote:
Mark 7:21-23
“For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
Romans 8:7-8
“For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
Amen.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
And like you posted;
The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God.
It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Who would want their own will if they had the choice between it and being controlled by God?
Only those that think by nature they have good wills. 
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 11:26:21 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3831
Joined: 3/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
No, shema, they were faulty points. The issue is NOT the misnomer "free will" but freedom of thought, which includes believing and rejecting.
See my post #950 for scripture that tells us about our thoughts prior to being reborn.
quote:
Can you explain WHY Jesus chided His very own disciples for their lack of faith while praising others for their great faith, IF God is the ONLY grantor of faith? Also, WHY didn't Jesus chide and praise His own Father for the various amounts of faith He observed in others? If calvinism were true, it would only make sense for Him to give all accountability to God for the faith of others. Yet, he chided and praised people for their faiths. Odd, huh!
Jesus was on earth teaching. I'm a teacher. We overly praise what we want our students to do in order to encourage and reinforce what we teach them. That's just an experiential aside, however.
I'll look into this with scripture and get back to you...maybe. See below.
quote:
Holding onto the notion that we're somehow able to choose to believe when we are bound in our sin, when scripture tells us that no one can please God,
quote:
sorry to cut off your sentence, but the errors keep getting deeper. In the first place, we are only "bound in our sin" because of whom we choose to present ourselves to obey, per Rom 6:16.
Absolutely a NO. We're bound in our sin according to original sin. That's why we're fallen man.
Looking at the context of Romans 6:16:
15What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
That's an illustrative if statement that speaks of slavery, with sin and obedience as general examples.
17But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
Here's the real, specific condition of our hearts, not a fabricated one for teaching purposes. We WERE once slaves of sin. The text doesn't say that we chose to obey sin. We know from Genesis and other verses that we're slaves of sin due to original sin.
quote:
Secondly, the correct statement is "no one can please God without faith". Please note ALL of what Heb 11:6 says. Seems many calvinists like to just quote the PART of a verse to support their pov, rather than the whole verse for context.
"6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."
We have to look at other verses, too.
John 6:65
“And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."”
Romans 8:7-8
“For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
Romans 3:9-12
“What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."”
quote:
What calvinism completely rejects is that the method that God uses to "work within us" is seen when He reveals Truth to mankind, as Romans 1 declares. So, non-calvinists acknowledge that God works in people before they come to believe, but man is NOT a puppet, and God isn't pulling their strings, as the calvinists think He does. He simply reveals truth to man. And He created man free to think. Think about it.
I have thought about it. I've also thought about your analysis of Romans 1 and disagree with you. Perhaps as you've written below, I'm just not serious enough...
quote:
The VERY FACT that there are many unbelievers who DO understand the gospel clearly and yet reject it proves that your understanding of this text is in error. The text says "not able to understand", and since many unbelievers DO understand the gospel, it should be obvious to any serious student of the Word that the gospel is NOT being referred to here.
When you'd like to have a civil discussion without maligning me, I'll resume. Until then, I'm ignoring you.
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2008 2:34:53 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
While I agree man chooses freely, but, only to a degree. Man is able to choose freely only within the limits of his nature.
No, that is incorrect. Man is able to choose freely within the available options. Man chooses according to his desires and inclination, that's what God teaches us as He relates the events of the Crucifixion, for example.
quote:
All of our choices are limited by the environment that God has given to each one of us. I never had the "choice" or "opportunity" to drive a Ferrari to high school because my Dad wouldn't buy one for me. But I did drive a car to school. I didn't have the "choice" of filet mignon for dinner every night, but I did get a full meal every night. God could have "given" me a different set of parents, and I would have had different choices. I don't disagree that this is one way God controls mankind.
quote:
But, when it comes to things of God, since He created mankind to seek Him, it absolutely IS within our natures to be able to choose to do so. God placing you where He wanted you IS a "thing of God". You have no scriptural support that it is within the nature of the natural man to seek God as He commands - with his whole heart.
quote:
quote:
Tell me, are you able to choose differently from what God knows?
Your sentence doesn't make a bit of sense. What are you trying to ask? It's not a difficult question, FG, and it is a perfectly clear question. Perhaps you might read it again?
quote:
Did you mean, "am I able to choose differently from the choices that God has given to me?" I meant what I asked "are you able to choose differently from what God knows?" God knows you will have that filet mignon for dinner. Is it possible that you will instead have fish? How do you choose to answer?...meat or fish?
quote:
quote:
You have no scriptural basis for this...that God simply had a "hand" in the events of the Crucifixion. By suggesting this, you take glory from God.
"No Scriptural basis", you say, huh? How about Acts 17:26? "and He made from one (Adam), every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their APPOINTED TIMES, AND THE BOUNDARIES OF THEIR HABITATION," I'd say I HAVE a Scriptural basis. Precisely as I said - you have NO scriptural basis for your claim that God simply had a "hand" in the events of the Crucfixion of Christ. God determined that event, He foreordained that event from before the foundation of the world. You minimize God's omniscience, omnipotence and sovereignty by claiming He simply "had a hand" in the event when He, in fact, declares that He determined and ordained it. That's considerably more than simply having a "hand" in it.
quote:
quote:
Yes, they did choose according to their nature. Your understanding falls short because you do not recognize that while God is the sovereign Ruler and primary cause, man is free within the limits of his nature and is the secondary cause.
I believe that your understanding falls extremely short. God is NEVER the cause of sin, regardless of what KJB and Caarico think. What we think is not the point. But, what Scripture says IS the point. And, Scripture is clear God is the primary cause of all things because He is the sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient Creator of all.
quote:
quote:
Did God cause Adam to sin by prodding him to disobey?...of course not. But, did God plan that Adam would sin?...of course, He did. We know this because Scripture informs us that God's plan was determined "before the foundation of the world."
You grossly misunderstand the text. What is "God's plan"? For man to sin, or for His Son to die for sins? If it was not God's plan for Adam to sin, then there wouldn’t have been the plan for the Crucifixion from before the foundation of the world.
quote:
quote:
quote:
But, that is just not the case at all. He simply knows your choices, that's all.
This little remark you made in another post reduces God to barely superior to an ancient crystal-ball prognosticator. No, it doesn't. That is just your opinion. Do you disagree that He knows your choices? Of course He knows. And, as well, He controls which choices you face. Is that better? Somewhat better; but, still not completely correct. See below.
quote:
quote:
quote:
My understanding of God's omniscience is that He not only knows what will happen perfectly, He also knows each and every possible alternate.
This little tidbit sees no support from Scripture which contains predictions of many events, great and small, which were perfectly fulfilled through the actions of free moral agents. Your acknowledgement of "free moral agents" is an admission of free will. Well, I don't mind "admitting" to what I believe. Of course, man is a free moral agent and has a free will. Never forget, though, the condition of that "moral" agent; God says he is spiritually dead. His desires and inclinations are alienated from God.
quote:
quote:
We are assured from Scripture that God doesn't make "contingency" plans.
I never said He did. I said He knows every possible alternative of every possible action. And, therefore, must make "contingency" plans to cover your "every possible alternative" of man's libertarian free will – if your “every possible alternative” was true which, of course, it is not.
quote:
quote:
It is a contradiction of terms to say that God foreknows as certain an event which in its very nature is uncertain. Please explain which events that are "in its very nature is uncertain"? Obviously, your "every possible alternative" is quite uncertain. You may choose "this", yet again, you may choose “that” - the definition of uncertainty. If something is uncertain (this or that) then it cannot be known. Everything God foreknows is certain, everything that is certain has been foreordained. Therefore, it is a contradiction in terms to say "possible" and "certain".
quote:
Apparently you don't really grasp what omniscience means. With God, there is NOTHING uncertain. Precisely why I asked you the original question. In any event, ultimately, the fact is that if God knows what you will choose, you are not free to choose otherwise....because then God would be wrong.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2008 2:40:54 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Just as you are the primary cause of your daughter eating what she wants; so, too, is God the primary cause of man's sin. kelman, no parent is the cause of their children eating. There's really no good reason to respond to the above post because it proves to be simply non-sensical. So, I won't bother. You prove with every passing post of yours that you do not read what you are replying to or are simply unable to understand what you do read.
From another post of yours...quote:
What calvinism completely rejects is that the method that God uses to "work within us" is seen when He reveals Truth to mankind, as Romans 1 declares. So, non-calvinists acknowledge that God works in people before they come to believe, but man is NOT a puppet, and God isn't pulling their strings, as the calvinists think He does. He simply reveals truth to man. And He created man free to think. Think about it. First, your conclusion is wrong. RT does not reject that God revealing truth is a method by which He "works within us".
Good to know that Arminians understand that God reveals truth and works in people BEFORE they believe. Add the new born again spirit and you have regeneration.
The creature is doomed/spiritually dead unless the Creator works in him/makes him alive. A little like the "puppet" is lifeless until the Master pulls its strings. Of course, what you mean as a slur holds no impact because puppets dont think, feel or act.
Below is from yet another post of yours which once again proves you do NOT pay attention - at all. Page after page you rode a whining merry-go-round that no one answered your question when, in fact, all along I not only answered your question but said EXACTLY what you are now saying. Why'd you put everyone through that tedious stupid charade? quote:
quote:
quote:
Why should He tell them HOW to avoid it if He KNEW they could not? That's right, kelman. Why indeed? The whole point is that He DID tell them, which none of the C campers can explain. The answer He did is because the gospel is for EVERYONE.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2008 2:49:51 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
quote:
Deut 30:19 says "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants. Here, God TELLS His people to choose life over death! So much for calvinism and the nonsense that people cannot choose unless God causes them to.
And as usual FreeGrace.........you are wrong again.  Not to mention the free willers believe this verse has nothing to do with us since it was written to the Jews. I guess only those passages written to Ancient Israel are good for today when the free willer thinks it helps his position.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2008 7:42:00 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
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FreeGrace,
Try this:
http://grammar.uoregon.edu/toc.html
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2008 7:47:36 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
Status: offline
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SovIsHe-
God responds to the free will decisions of man.
The fact that God foreknows what they are doesn't matter.
If man does x I will do y.
If man does a I will do b.
If Adam does not disobey, its all as I had planned.
If man repents, I will not bring the calamity I had planned.
If there is one righteous person I will not destroy Sodom.
Etc, Etc.
Did God have an original plan?
Who messed it up?
Why did God allow it to be messed up?
Is it because redemption is meaningless if there are no conditions
to be met and it is all staged or manipulated?
I think so.
As I have said before, if everything has been determined, why bother?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2008 7:51:32 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
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KJB:
Do you have a copy of Systematic Theology by your own Wayne Grudem?
If so, I suggest you read the chapter on Repentance, particularly pp. 712-713.
Grudem says repentance is a personal decision of man based on a realization
or knowledge of his condition.
This is from one of your own leading reformed theologians, my friend.
So who are you to tell me flatly I am wrong?
Is Grudem also misinformed?
Better tell is to John MacArthur also.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2008 8:05:48 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: quixote
quote:
btw, do you disagree that every "if...then" proposition is a potential?
Yes, I disagree and provided an example. Here's another:
If Christ sinned, he would disqualify himself as the Savior.
Your example, as I noted, was faulty and therefore not an example worthy of consideration.
Even your second example here is faulty. Since Christ is God, and God cannot sin, your prodesis is faulty.
Why don't you stay with reality here when considering the prodesis? IF you do, THEN you will have a good example. (see what I mean?)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2008 8:08:41 AM
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John_O
Posts: 8009
Joined: 9/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
If God allows it then He has willed it to happen.
Which puts us right back to God is the cause of sin. A point I disagree with and a discussion I'm not ready to have.
I am in control of what my daughter has for supper. However I let her choose sometimes what she wants to eat. That doesn't make me any less in control of the menu.
You may not be willing to have that discussion; but, its seems you're right smack in the middle of it :)
RT does not deny that one way in which God controls man is through man's free choices. Just as you are the primary cause of your daughter eating what she wants; so, too, is God the primary cause of man's sin.
So God says "Thou shalt not..." then forces even us believers to commit those sins? (1John1:8-10) I don't think so. How can he discipline us for doing what he leaves us no other options but to do. It would be like forcing your child to break a window and then beating him for breaking the window. This is a cultic mind control technique, not the action of a loving (but just) God.
quote:
Your daughter, who eats according to her desires, is the secondary cause of her choosing what to eat. This would be impossible for her to do had you not first granted the permission; and, in fact, provided the "choices" she must choose from.
No. She desires to eat what she desire to eat. If it were up to me she'd desire to eat more vegetables (as grotesque as that thought is I recognize we need veggies in our diet). However she does not. I cannot force her to desire to eat brocolli. She desires mac' n' cheese and a hot dog, no matter what I allow her to eat.
quote:
This seems to be your position also since you said "I am in control of what my daughter has for supper." You did not "cause" your daughter to eat what she desired by spooning the food she chose into her mouth. But, the fact, remains you are the primary cause of your daughter eating the food she "freely" chose.
I allow her to eat (sometimes) what she desires, but I in no way control those desires. I can force her to eat what she does not desire, but that doesn't change the desire at all. She still wants Mac' n' cheese and a hot dog even if we are eating fish and veggies in cheese sauce.
I control what she eats, not what she wants to eat. I sometimes allow her to eat mac'n'n cheese and that in no way decreases my control over what she has for supper.
Just as God allows us to choose what we want but in no way forces us to choose those things. That allowing of our choice does not decrease his sovereignity in any way.
In fact, we are told how to bring our desires more in line with what God wants us to desire. Psm 37:1-6 Why tell us how to do it if we cannot do it?
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2008 8:21:50 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
You are correct about "free will". The real issue is that man has "freedom of choice" which is God given. The term "free will" suggests that man can "change his spots", change his environment, such as weather, etc, and a host of other nonsense. The ONLY issue of being free in in what man thinks. And God created man to think freely.
And here's a bit of what the Bible says about man thinking freely in his natural, sinful state:
Before we proceed to your "proof texts", of course the Bible is full of verses that speak to the sinfulness of man. But, there is NO verse that supports the calvinistic notion that man cannot seek God nor believe.
quote:
Genesis 6:5
“The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”
In this context, this was pre-flood, and evil was rampant, to the point that God wiped out humanity, save Noah and his immediate family. This verse does NOT speak to post-flood humanity.
quote:
Mark 7:21-23
“For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
Yes, evil does come from within our hearts (souls). Does this verse say that man is not free to believe the evidence that God makes clear? No.
quote:
Romans 8:7-8
“For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
Read ahead in that context to v.12: "So, then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh". In a related passage in Col 3:2, we are told to "set our minds on the things above (spiritual), not on things that are on earth (fleshly). When you put them together, we see that we have a choice to make; where to "set" our minds.
quote:
Ephesians 4:17-19
“Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.”
Note the phrase "you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do". iow, it's something that we "must not do". That phrase clearly suggests the possibility of doing just that. If we weren't able to walk any longer as the Gentiles do, that phrase would be irrelevant. So, once again, we face a choice. Either "walk as the Gentiles do", or NOT.
quote:
Titus 1:15
“To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.”
Does this verse claim that man is unable to seek God or believe the evidence that God makes clear? No.
quote:
Ephesians 2:1-3
“And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”
All unbelievers are spiritually dead. Does this passage claim that unbelievers cannot seek God or believe the evidence that God makes clear? No.
None of your verses prove or even suggest than man is NOT free in his thinking. The verses you chose to use speak of man's sinfulness. That is not in dispute at all.
What do you do with Joshua 24:15 and Deut 30:19? those verses very clearly demonstrate that God gives man a choice. And don't forget Isa 1:19,20.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2008 8:28:54 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1684
Joined: 12/2/2006
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rwe2156,
quote:
KJB:
Do you have a copy of Systematic Theology by your own Wayne Grudem?
If so, I suggest you read the chapter on Repentance, particularly pp. 712-713.
No, I dont have that.
quote:
Grudem says repentance is a personal decision of man based on a realization
or knowledge of his condition.
Of course it is.
I would not disagree with that.
People are persons and persons make personal decisions.
I have no problem at all in understanding that, and nor would I oppose that.
What you should grasp is that what we have been claiming.
God is capable and actually does cause persons to make personal decisions.
The natural person makes the personal decision to follow his own personal nature which just so happens to be in bondage to sin and in total cahoots with satan, and in total rebellion to God.
The person does this naturally, willingly, happily, unhappily, and it is all personal.
quote:
This is from one of your own leading reformed theologians, my friend.
I have not read the entire book so I cant make comments on the entire book.
quote:
So who are you to tell me flatly I am wrong?
I am a nobody rwe2156 and you should know that by now. 
You are under no obligation to read what I write at all. I dont have any way of forcing you to agree with me and nor would I even want to force you to. Those kinds of things are all personal decisions you make.
The things I posted are from Scripture.
It shows that the unrepentant are held captive by Satan to do his will.
I dont know how to water that down and make it sound less scary or less invasive.
It is obvious that somehow Satan has invaded their wills and they are being held hostage to disobedience and in all of this they are not being held against their personal wills.
I am just a nobody.
You may equate "demon captivity' to "freedom" somehow....and I have to be totally honest and claim that I just do not know how or why you do it. It is your personal choice to do so.
I dont equate "personal freedom" and "free-will" with being "held captive by Satan to do his will".
I equate it to an actual CAPTIVITY of which there is no escape UNLESS someone else steps in and intervenes to save. That is also my personal choice.
The text is clear and it has to do with repentance;
(NASB)....If perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
(NLT).......Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth. Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil’s trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.
(NIV).......in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
The multiple choice test was actually a very easy one and the correct answers when held in light to the text would be;
Who in the text perhaps may grant repentance?;
1. The devil.
2. Mr. Bean.
3. God.
4. The individual human will.
The unrepentant are;
1. Held captive to do what the devil wants.
2. Full of a fabulous and glorious "free from satan" will.
3. Breaking the devil's traps as fast as he can set them.
4. Never choosing what kind of food they like to eat.
The unrepentant that are held in captivity will escape the devil's trap if perhaps God will give them a change of;
1. Socks.
2. Ammunition.
3. Mortgage companies.
4. Heart.
I understand that accepting this all to be true as a personal choice would require a person to completely abandon himself and that is not an easy thing to do.
A person would just about have to consider himself a nobody and know that his own will is really not all that powerful towards good at all.
A person would come to know based on a realization or knowledge of his condition that he is helpless and rotten.
God gives such revelation and people come to their senses.
It is at that time people give no praise at all towards their rotten will and give all praise to God for saving them even though they had a rotten will.
People then instead of boasting in their wills simply cry out "have mercy on me a sinner" and find that God was doing that in the first place which is why He caused them to turn to Him and break free from captivity.
God saves no-bodies by changing their hearts and granting them repentance.
That is just how I personally believe.
Take care,
KJB
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Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2008 8:35:22 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
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We've already admitted that the issue is NOT the will, which is certainly NOT free, but that we ARE free to think our own thoughts, which include what we believe and reject. That is what the calvinists are in error over.
For someone that has posted page after page after page promoting "free-will" you still never cease to amaze me.
I wish you could get this right for once. I've promoted freedom of thought, which is distinct from "free will". Even in the quote box above I explained the difference. But that doesn't seem to make much "difference" to you, though.
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Ok.....hold that 'thought' of yours up there in the quote box.
Instead, how about if you would just understand what I say, for once?
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You are claiming that you were free to think your own thoughts and by thinking your own thoughts you thought you would turn to Jesus Christ.
No, I've never "claimed" anything close to that. We are free to believe what we want to. When the gospel is presented, we are free to accept it at true, or reject it as false. That's what I said. Why can't you grasp my pov?
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You are still as wrong as wrong can be.
OK, your opinion has been duly noted. 
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As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts.
Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
And, what does this passage say to you, KJ?
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Your thoughts were in obedience to your sinful nature which was disobedience.
What is the key to whom we "obey", KJ? We CHOOSE to whom we present ourselves to obey. Paul said so in Rom 6:16. Do you want to argue with him?
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The sinful nature does not "think" faith.
The sinful nature thinks, which is the point. When God reveals evidence about Himself, He makes is clear, so that man is without excuse. Your phrase "think faith" is silly. That isn't even a correct concept. Man "has" faith. To "have" faith, man must understand what is presented, and then believe it.
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If your 'thoughts' were somehow 'thinking' faith you would not have been considered an object of wrath.
Once anyone believes, they are no longer considered objects of wrath, KJ. Didn't you know that? Only unbelievers are objects of wrath.
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But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Amen to that! And don't forget, we are saved THROUGH FAITH. Always amazing when the calvinists prefer to quote Eph 2:5 rather than the complete thought in 2:8.
btw, it was by the grace of God that Christ tasted death for pas. iow, Christ died for everyone. That is grace.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2008 8:39:09 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: shemaromans
Your quote states that God can do what he wants to do. Given that, why would you question the reason WHY Jesus said what he did to the non-elect if he's sovereign God and alone holds all rights to his creatures?
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You appear to have contradicted yourself, brother.
Please clarify, because I haven't.
You stated plainly that God can do what he wants to do and then you question why Jesus said what he did to whom he did. Jesus is God. By questioning Jesus' motives, you're ignoring his right (that you said he has) to do what he wants.
Thanks for the clarification. I haven't been questioning Jesus. I have been asking the calvinists to explain WhY Jesus said what He said, in light of your theology. That is quite different.
I have even provided my answer to my own question, so there is NO WAY to conclude that I am questioning Jesus. That is quite a faulty conclusion.
Calvinists are unable to provide a clear, concise and rational answer as to why Jesus would evangelize everyone, when the calvinistic pov is that the gospel is ONLY for the elect.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2008 8:55:59 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
No, shema, they were faulty points. The issue is NOT the misnomer "free will" but freedom of thought, which includes believing and rejecting.
See my post #950 for scripture that tells us about our thoughts prior to being reborn.
None of your verses state that is ALL the unregenerate are able to think. Your point is not taken.
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Can you explain WHY Jesus chided His very own disciples for their lack of faith while praising others for their great faith, IF God is the ONLY grantor of faith? Also, WHY didn't Jesus chide and praise His own Father for the various amounts of faith He observed in others? If calvinism were true, it would only make sense for Him to give all accountability to God for the faith of others. Yet, he chided and praised people for their faiths. Odd, huh!
Jesus was on earth teaching. I'm a teacher. We overly praise what we want our students to do in order to encourage and reinforce what we teach them. That's just an experiential aside, however.
I'll look into this with scripture and get back to you...maybe.
Your "experientaial aside" doesn't address my question as to WHY Jesus chided His own disciples for their lack of faith, AND praising others for their great faith. Especially since calvinism claims that faith comes from God.
If that is true, Jesus SHOULD HAVE chided His own Father when He obvserved lack of faith, and praised His own Father when He observed great faith.
Don't you see the contradiction between what Jesus says and calvinism?
Also, what do you mean by your "...maybe"? Does that mean you are not sure you will be able to answer my question?
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Holding onto the notion that we're somehow able to choose to believe when we are bound in our sin, when scripture tells us that no one can please God,
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sorry to cut off your sentence, but the errors keep getting deeper. In the first place, we are only "bound in our sin" because of whom we choose to present ourselves to obey, per Rom 6:16.
Absolutely a NO. We're bound in our sin according to original sin. That's why we're fallen man.
I cut off your sentence because of your "no one can please God". You didn't finish that sentence from Heb 11:6. Even that verse contradicts calvinism. Man pleases God only when he believes what God says.
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Looking at the context of Romans 6:16:
15What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
That's an illustrative if statement that speaks of slavery, with sin and obedience as general examples.
17But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
Here's the real, specific condition of our hearts, not a fabricated one for teaching purposes. We WERE once slaves of sin. The text doesn't say that we chose to obey sin. We know from Genesis and other verses that we're slaves of sin due to original sin.
The text DOES say we "present ourselves to someone as slaves for obedience" and even shows us the choices we have: "either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness".
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Secondly, the correct statement is "no one can please God without faith". Please note ALL of what Heb 11:6 says. Seems many calvinists like to just quote the PART of a verse to support their pov, rather than the whole verse for context.
"6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."
We have to look at other verses, too.
Why? So you can twist Heb 11:6? v.6b even noted that those who seek Him ARE REWARDED. How do you handle that?
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John 6:65
“And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."”
Yep. When a calvinist is given a verse that they can't handle, they rush to John 6:65. Sorry, Jojhn 6:65 doesn't "interp" Heb 11:6.
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Romans 8:7-8
“For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
How does this verse define Heb 11:6?
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Romans 3:9-12
“What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."”
Why did you stop with v.12? Paul quoted from 7 OT passages, starting in v.10 and ending in v.18. After making the point in 3:9 that everyone in the human race is under sin, he then quotes 7 OT passages to illustrate the various ways man is sinful. None of those 7 OT passages speaks of every person, but speaks of the various ways humanity is sinful.
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What calvinism completely rejects is that the method that God uses to "work within us" is seen when He reveals Truth to mankind, as Romans 1 declares. So, non-calvinists acknowledge that God works in people before they come to believe, but man is NOT a puppet, and God isn't pulling their strings, as the calvinists think He does. He simply reveals truth to man. And He created man free to think. Think about it.
I have thought about it. I've also thought about your analysis of Romans 1 and disagree with you. Perhaps as you've written below, I'm just not serious enough...
Why are you not serious enough?
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The VERY FACT that there are many unbelievers who DO understand the gospel clearly and yet reject it proves that your understanding of this text is in error. The text says "not able to understand", and since many unbelievers DO understand the gospel, it should be obvious to any serious student of the Word that the gospel is NOT being referred to here.
When you'd like to have a civil discussion without maligning me, I'll resume. Until then, I'm ignoring you.
You charge me with "maligning" you. How so? By telling you your understanding of the text is in error? If you were a serious student of the Word, you would have noted 1 Cor 2:14 speaks of "not understanding" the "things of the Spirit". Yet, since many unbelievers clearly DO understand the gospel, 1 Cor 2:14 cannot be referring to the gospel.
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