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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/17/2008 8:19:24 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
Yes, what we call low self esteem is rooted in pride. For example, if someone says, "I am ugly, I hate myself." What they are really saying is that they love themselves and they are upset because they are not better looking. If they truly hated themselves, they would be happy they were ugly.
I strongly disagree with this statement.
Victims of abuse do not view themselves this way. It is not a matter of pride. it was a repetition of emotional beatings as well as physical beating s that literally ingrained a thought process that binds them.
It seems that some key elements of life are not being considered here.
A person who has heard all their life that they are ugly and good for nothing, is not happy because they are ugly. They do not believe that they can/could/are pretty. They don't go around bemoaning that they are ugly either. They simply do not know another way to live.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/17/2008 8:43:23 AM
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makarizo
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It is safe to say that we are all creatures of habit, and when our lives are "transformed" and we become "new creatures", the habits do not magically disappear...... don't even know what the habits are.
but we walk in faith, and when the time is right, Christ takes us where we need to be, and shows us what we need to hand over to Him.
and when we do, a little sanctification (progressively) happens.
if someone chooses NOT to hand something over, (like low self esteem) it is pride, but (for me) the better terminology is "godship" - putting my habits, opinions, needs, morals, feelings ahead of God's will.
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/17/2008 8:53:59 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
if someone chooses NOT to hand something over, (like low self esteem) it is pride,
I don't think that's pride, at least not in the context of the previous few posts.
I do believe that the false humility is a severe form of pride.
It is fear and unbelief. They do not yet know because they have not experienced freedom.
I think we just have to be careful tossing the word pride around because things aren't always as they may seem. We can do even more damage is if we just assume something is a pride issue and it's really not.
A damaged soul hearing how prideful they are isn't going to warm to the idea of freedom..... They won't hear the love, they will hear the condemnation though.
ETA:
quote:
the better terminology is "godship" - putting my habits, opinions, needs, morals, feelings ahead of God's will.
I like this, it's a good way to put it.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/17/2008 3:59:50 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
I think we just have to be careful tossing the word pride around because things aren't always as they may seem. We can do even more damage is if we just assume something is a pride issue and it's really not.
A damaged soul hearing how prideful they are isn't going to warm to the idea of freedom..... They won't hear the love, they will hear the condemnation though.
No, DD, those of us with damaged souls (like me. . . and you. . . and URF. . .and everyone) need to come to the realization that we are who God says we are, no more, no less. Seeing ourselves rightly is what it is all about. And seeing ourselves rightly BEGINS with seeing how wrong we are, repentance, and confessing our proud, self loving ways.
I found freedom by seeing myself and believing what God says instead and that's what I want to offer everyone else. That doesn't mean I'm insensitive. But in this discussion I'll call pride what it is. And you can call it something else. 
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/17/2008 4:05:44 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
Low self esteem comes from not understanding who we are in Christ... it has nothing to do with regarding oneself more or thinking of oneself. It is completely the opposite. They are not regarding themself at all, or at least the way that God wants them to.
I beg to differ. It certainly does result from not understanding who we are in Christ but that lack of understanding can still be a proud self preoccupation. And any thinking of self. . . me focus is what pride is all about. In other words it's all about me.
I do know that there are people who live in the realm of self deprecation. And that is my bent. But I had to come to see it as pride. And I truly believe that is what God wants me to see it as. Humility thinks of others and puts their needs first. That is where the Lord wants me to be.
Anyway, this obviously is another place we differ. Oh well. Love you both. LL
quote: URForgiven
Yes, what we call low self esteem is rooted in pride. For example, if someone says, "I am ugly, I hate myself." What they are really saying is that they love themselves and they are upset because they are not better looking. If they truly hated themselves, they would be happy they were ugly.
The problem with us (all of us) is not that we need to love ourselves more, the problem is we love ourselves too much already. It is our perverted self love, our exalted self-image that is the problem, not the solution.
God says that the solution is the renewing of our minds, about Him, about ourselves, about others and about life. The solution is to believe what Scripture says about who we are in Christ, and who we are outside of the control of Christ.
Romans 7:18
“I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; For I desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.”
This will be the condition of our flesh until we leave this arena, the flesh does not get better, and we will never get perfection from what is imperfect.
Until we get to...
Romans 7:24
“What a wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?”
We will never realize the joy and freedom of...
Romans 7:25
“Thanks be to God - through Jesus Christ our Lord!”
In and of ourselves...we are doomed to a life of certain failure. Because the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit. But God has not left us alone. We who have been redeemed by the blood of Christ are also indwelt by the Spirit of God. And He leads us from within...
Galatians 5:16
“So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh”
...and there is the solution. It doesn't say clean up the flesh and then you will be spiritual. It doesn't say love yourself more. It says live by the Spirit, live in total dependence upon the indwelling Spirit of God...and then you will not be doing what the flesh desires.
We must accept as our self image what God says about us. And who we now are as Children of God is because of Christ, not ourselves. The punishment for our sins went on Jesus Christ 2000 years ago, and there is none left for us who are in Him. It is not because we are perfect in ourselves, it is because we are indwelt by the Perfect One...and because He has done for us what we could never do for ourselves.
Yeah, this is what I say. I so covet those who can put into words what I know in my head and heart. . . like you, URF. In many ways I feel like I am trapped inside myself, unable to express who I am, what I think, what I know to be true, etc. And what comes out (as in gets expressed) are just short, condensed, to the point bits of me.
So IF I could express myself well, this is what I would have said. Thanks, URF. Have fun with your family/visitors. Mine left on Friday so now I'm back. 
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/17/2008 4:58:57 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
And seeing ourselves rightly BEGINS with seeing how wrong we are, repentance, and confessing our proud, self loving ways.
LL, try telling that to someone who has been a victim and really see if they even talk to you anymore.
Basically, what I quoted, is telling them how wrong they are for being a victim of abuse or whatever other tragedy might befall them. They did not choose to be a victim as a child can not choose their parents.
Yeah, telling that they are wrong and need to repent is sure going to have them running to Jesus. 
I don't mean for this to sound harsh, but that was just really beyond me, especially now knowing you come from a sociological background.
I fully agree that we have to go before the Lord and acknowledge our faults and failings, admit our sin and repent. That's not the issue.
Do you really believe that a victim of abuse is caught up in self love???? 
Those people don't know love period, much less self love.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/17/2008 9:18:08 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
LL, try telling that to someone who has been a victim and really see if they even talk to you anymore.
Basically, what I quoted, is telling them how wrong they are for being a victim of abuse or whatever other tragedy might befall them. They did not choose to be a victim as a child can not choose their parents.
Yeah, telling that they are wrong and need to repent is sure going to have them running to Jesus.
I don't mean for this to sound harsh, but that was just really beyond me, especially now knowing you come from a sociological background.
I fully agree that we have to go before the Lord and acknowledge our faults and failings, admit our sin and repent. That's not the issue.
Do you really believe that a victim of abuse is caught up in self love????
Those people don't know love period, much less self love.
DD,
I am speaking truth to you but certainly to someone who has been a victim of the type of abuse that you obviously are referring to would require sensitivity and the direction and leading of the Holy Spirit to know what to speak and when to speak it. But my point is that we all start out with wrong ideas of what love is---so from that sense, we all begin the same. Certainly they have more baggage to deal with but in some ways not.
One of my dear friends grew up in a very abusive environment. Her mother was promiscuous and their home changed like others change lightbulbs. The men came and went and abuse took place all the time. Her mother was extremely neglectful of the kids and my friend cowered in corners, under beds, etc.
But talk about a woman who knows and speaks the truth boldly and bluntly! She is a truthteller and that's what she desires from others. And the abuse she has been delivered from was tremendous.
So each person is different and how God meets and deals with each of us is as individual as we are---and that's the way He intends it. So while I understand being sensitive to the Spirit's leading, when we are discussing a topic among friends here on the forum, I'm going to speak truth as I understand it. I can't be responsible for how others respond to it. Anyway, that's how I see it. LL
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/20/2008 7:35:27 AM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pstrdebi
... there are "seekers" out there who need to know that they are not condemned because they have low self-esteem.
I agree, "all or nothing thinking" is a cognitive distortion that is common with low self esteem, and even tho when one is in Christ, there is no condemnation. a person with low self esteem is missing the mark.
rather than condemning them, we reeeeeellly need to encourage them, edify them, remind them of who they are (in Christ).
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/20/2008 3:32:20 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
rather than condemning them, we reeeeeellly need to encourage them, edify them, remind them of who they are (in Christ).
I truly hope that the majority of this thread has done this for those who are suffering with it and from it.
It was those who I have read about in these forums, that sparked this thread.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/20/2008 5:49:22 PM
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rofaith
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From: rofaith, a believer
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Wow, DD, great topic.... I have really struggled with this especially wrt what the Bible says, especially in Romans 7:18, "I know I am rotten through and through so far as my old sinful nature is concerned...." For some reason it took me a long time to understand what this is talking about. What this means is that my value is rooted not in my sinful nature, or my body, but in me as a person. I have lived all my life before knowing Jesus Christ as a sinful person, being governed by my sinful hurts, hangups and habits, such as Isolation, Food Addiction and other coping mechanisms not appropriate to list here. (see my Testimony in Testify !) Every bad choice I made, was driven by my sinful nature... These bad choices in turn literally wounded me as a person as well as my perception of myself. Such is the way of sin, I guess. It is so destructive. As a Christian, the remainder of my life is not only spent in serving Christ and others, but also in repairing, growing and healing the damage done by a life of hurts, hangups and habits caused by my sinful choices. I was shocked by this, because it never occurred to me that God cared about the pain that I felt over time wrt my self esteem and perceived lack of value that is indeed, self inflicted and the result of life circumstances some of which were out of my control.
So, now, I can see that God has put value and significance into me when He created me. He created my soul as a person.... unfortunately the body and sinful nature came along with the deal due to Eve's being deceived and Adam's overt decision to disobey God.
Of all times, the Holy Spirit revealed this to me on my 52nd birthday which I was celebrating alone, seven years after my divorce. I had chosen to celebrate my birthday, which BTW, was a difficult choice. He in turn, revealed how precious a moment it was for Him to "faith" me into existence and place me in my mothers womb at just the right time, and at that point in the history of His world to do things for Him and others. His heart and dreams of what I would become came into existence at that moment in time. In fact, my birthday is one of His favorite days of the year. These are such basic things to know, I felt I had gone to school with God right then and there. Of course, He was the teacher. It was so touching that He showed up for my birthday when no one else did.
So, I was sitting in a restaurant at the time.... I was a basket case as you might imagine... my value, everyone's value and significance to God is precious beyond measure. He treasures every moment we spend with Him and live for Him. We are His masterpiece and His treasured sons and daughters. Knowing this, my perceived self esteem and where it was on the self-esteem meter rapidly became moot... my value is based in how He views me.... and now, to have eternal salvation and spend eternity with that kind of God.... Wow on that.....
Happy with what I am in Christ, but nevertheless, I am a work in progress.... In His grip gratefully....
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There is no other name....
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/21/2008 10:34:47 AM
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doinkdom
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I'd like to just add (and not to cause more confusion...sorry about that earlier) ...
I do not connect esteem with being a victim of abuse. IMO, the term, self esteem (low or high) is non-biblical and abuse victims are a separate matter.
With victims of abuse, the consequence of their abuse manifests itself in many ways. This person must be restored to Christ, this person needs to grow in the knowledge of forgiveness and this person needs to define themselves ONLY in terms of what God has already said. They may need to mourn and grieve, they may need physical healing, etc. but they need their Lord and Savior most of all. Circumstantial depression is also something that might need to be addressed.
Low self-esteem is a handy psychology term that gives allowance for a person to manipulate their surroundings with emotional outbursts or trauma. Not maliciously or even consciously. And many might find it leads back to a point in time of abuse. But that doesn't excuse the behavior once this person knows the truth of the Gospel. The person now knows the truth and they are responsible for that truth. The Gospel is not therapeutic, the Gospel is God's hard truth for His people.
IMO, the body of Christ shares in that responsibility to come alongside this person and help them walk this out to the glory of God. There is a commitment to the person who suffered abuse to care for them until they are in a place to care for someone else.
IMO, self esteem has nothing to do with confidence and nothing to do with shyness. We boost our confidence and our shyness by being bold in the Lord, not in ourselves.
Hope that made sense and didn't cause too much heartburn. 
I would hope that anyone here who has suffered abuse has people surrounding them in love, waiting to serve them, ministering to them and loving them through their pain and suffering. If not...please forgive us for not being The Body of Christ.
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/21/2008 10:48:35 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
Low self-esteem is a handy psychology term that gives allowance for a person to manipulate their surroundings with emotional outbursts or trauma. Not maliciously or even consciously.
This statement I disagree with. It's very insensitive to those who suffer from low self esteem.
There are examples in the Bible of people suffering from low self esteem, it's called doubt.
I brought up abuse victims because low self esteem does not effect everyone in the same way across the board. Their are different levels. No matter the level the solution is the same-Jesus.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/21/2008 10:56:38 AM
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doinkdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
There are examples in the Bible of people suffering from low self esteem, it's called doubt.
That's what I mean...it's "doubt" not low self-esteem. I'm saying if we use the right term, then we can address it better and help one another through it together.
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/21/2008 4:18:22 PM
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pstrdebi
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quote:
Low self-esteem is a handy psychology term that gives allowance for a person to manipulate their surroundings with emotional outbursts or trauma. Not maliciously or even consciously.
Do you see the young girl? She is 14 and she's 40 lbs overweight. Her dad is already downing his 2nd beer as she's leaving for school and she hears him holler out as she goes out the door, "are you wearing that? It makes you look like a fat clown!" She stands by herself at the bus stop... as the others giggle and snicker. As they board the bus, one of the preppy girls throws her gum at her and it sticks to her backpack. Everyone on the bus laughs. She's humiliated.
Her science teacher asks her to do a demonstration, but she declines and makes some lame excuse, afraid that the students will only do something to shame her again.
On the way home, she undergoes the same torment she endures every single day.
She gets home... dad is blitzed and begins to berate her. Mom chimes in, telling her that she will never amount to anything.
She does her homework... goes to bed, and as she lies there looking at the ceiling... she contemplates the idea of a world without her in it.
If ANYONE thinks this girl, and the thousands of kids and adults just like her, is manipulating their surroundings with emotional outbursts or trauma... I would emplore you to take a deeper look within.
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." Gen. 1:27
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did (this includes thinking) for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Matt 25:40
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/25/2008 2:55:09 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4249
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pstrdebi
quote:
Low self-esteem is a handy psychology term that gives allowance for a person to manipulate their surroundings with emotional outbursts or trauma. Not maliciously or even consciously.
Do you see the young girl? She is 14 and she's 40 lbs overweight. Her dad is already downing his 2nd beer as she's leaving for school and she hears him holler out as she goes out the door, "are you wearing that? It makes you look like a fat clown!" She stands by herself at the bus stop... as the others giggle and snicker. As they board the bus, one of the preppy girls throws her gum at her and it sticks to her backpack. Everyone on the bus laughs. She's humiliated.
Her science teacher asks her to do a demonstration, but she declines and makes some lame excuse, afraid that the students will only do something to shame her again.
On the way home, she undergoes the same torment she endures every single day.
She gets home... dad is blitzed and begins to berate her. Mom chimes in, telling her that she will never amount to anything.
She does her homework... goes to bed, and as she lies there looking at the ceiling... she contemplates the idea of a world without her in it.
If ANYONE thinks this girl, and the thousands of kids and adults just like her, is manipulating their surroundings with emotional outbursts or trauma... I would emplore you to take a deeper look within.
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." Gen. 1:27
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did (this includes thinking) for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Matt 25:40
Or for pete's sake...I'm NOT NOT NOT saying that this girl isn't depressed (she obviously has good reason to be) or that she hasn't been treated terribly (again...obviuosly) and her parents need serious help.
But what does the bible say about her? About us as the body? We should be coming alongside this girl to care for her and confront the despicable family she has. And if she is not a Christian, then she needs to hear the Gospel.
She needs Jesus, not another label. She needs the body of Christ to lift her up and place her at the foot of the cross of His resurrection. She needs Jesus, not better self-esteem.
that's all I'm saying...
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/25/2008 9:22:51 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
rather than condemning them, we reeeeeellly need to encourage them, edify them, remind them of who they are (in Christ).
I truly hope that the majority of this thread has done this for those who are suffering with it and from it.
It was those who I have read about in these forums, that sparked this thread.
I was an abused child....... when I read a boy called it, I was amazed at the similarities between dave and me.
at a very young age, I found my identity in Christ. a Saviour who would never leave or forsake me. I think I was very lucky, but you can call it something else.
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/26/2008 6:27:52 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
I was an abused child....... when I read a boy called it, I was amazed at the similarities between dave and me.
at a very young age, I found my identity in Christ. a Saviour who would never leave or forsake me. I think I was very lucky, but you can call it something else.
Thank you Makarizo for sharing that. I read that book and his follow up. I am sorry for the past you had to endure. I truly believe that the Lord uses our pasts as testimonies to Him. I'm also sure that He puts people in our paths that need to know how we discovered Him. You just never know what God is going to do or who He will touch by our testimonies.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/26/2008 11:48:57 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
Low self esteem comes from not understanding who we are in Christ... it has nothing to do with regarding oneself more or thinking of oneself. It is completely the opposite. They are not regarding themselves at all, or at least the way that God wants them to.
I beg to differ. It certainly does result from not understanding who we are in Christ but that lack of understanding can still be a proud self preoccupation. And any thinking of self. . . me focus is what pride is all about. In other words it's all about me.
I do know that there are people who live in the realm of self deprecation. And that is my bent. But I had to come to see it as pride. And I truly believe that is what God wants me to see it as. Humility thinks of others and puts their needs first. That is where the Lord wants me to be.
Anyway, this obviously is another place we differ. Oh well. Love you both. LL
I am struggling to understand where you are getting this from.
#1... if you have a "lack of understanding"... it does not have to mean that you are prideful. If you CHOOSE to not understand, you would be choosing not to learn and grow and that is a completely different subject. You can have a lack of understanding because of many different reasons; ie: a church that isn't supportive in teaching, no undergirding and followup care, etc.
and #2... how can you correlate a "lack of understanding" in THIS context as prideful? OR... how can you correlate being prideful with someone who feels that they are worthless because all their lives they were told that they would never amount to anything? That is indeed NOT prideful.
#3... there is a huge difference between being proud and being prideful. I am proud of the woman that God is making out of me... I am proud that I can set my mind to something and get it done... I am proud of how my children turned out.
Being prideful would be thinking that because of those accomplishments, I am better than everyone else.
Once again, I will lend this disagreement to the fact that we need to again be careful with our teachings. In a Christian forum... there are "seekers" out there who need to know that they are not condemned because they have low self-esteem.
Debi,
I agree that we need to be careful with what we speak to others. This is what Jesus teaches and does. So He spoke truth. "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
It is truth that frees us---and truth is not only truth with a capital T as in the Truth, Jesus, but also knowing the truth about ourselves. Coming to believe and know the truth about myself is livegiving and freedom. It is only as I abide in His truth, what He says, and He knows all truth about me (and all mankind), that I am truly His disciple and will know the truth and be set free.
So when He tells me who I am, I believe Him. When Isaiah met the Lord, he said 'woe is me for I am a man of unclean lips'. Isaiah knew who he was when he met the Lord. When he looked at a holy God, he not only saw God's holiness, he saw himself.
As I fellowship with the Lord, I listen and learn and believe what He says about me. And what does He say? He says the flesh is seeking to please herself. And those self loving ways lead to all kinds of behaviors among which are hate, jealousy, fighting, immorality, pride, selfishness, envy, and on and on. This is who we are in the flesh. True, when we come to Christ we become a new creature but the flesh is always with us and Galatians makes it clear that we can walk either by the Spirit or the flesh.
Is it condemning to believe what Jesus says about me? about what living and walking in the flesh is all about? Is it condemning for Jesus to speak the truth to me, or you, or others about who we are or how we behave when the Spirit is not in control?
You see, I don't think this is condemnation at all. I think it is believing and knowing the Truth (as in Jesus) and the truth (about me) and this is the way of LIFE and FREEDOM.
Jesus said that for some people His word finds "no place in you." (John 8:37) These are those who do not listen and believe what Jesus says, about Himself and about themselves. They would not let Jesus' words, and life, penetrate their hearts and do the work that God desires to do within. In I Thessalonians, Paul put it this way, "And for this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God's message, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe." (2:13)
I believe what God says about me and about my flesh. And it is only by knowing and believing Him that I can be set free.
So when I speak of pride as being exalting of self---regardless of how that exaltation is played out (I'm great or I'm bad), I am speaking truth. God's | | |
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