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Part of why we sat in the balcony was because of the bar. This was the first time I've attended a Christian speaking event where a friendly bartender was available to serve up your favorite beverage.

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From the picture below you can see that the friendly bartender either served me a beer or a glass of apple juice. You be the judge.

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ORIGINAL: jazzact13

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OK, he could say a Christian within a Buddhist cultural context. "Buddhist Christian" is a lot easier to say. I think we're parsing words here.

Am I? Or am I taking seriously what he is saying?

You're assuming that his use of 'Buddist Chirstian' was a mistake. Was it, though? Or is that what he meant?

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There is most definitely a "buddhist culture" independent from a buddhist faith.

No, I do not think so. There may be ways in which Buddhism influences a culture, yes, but that is not the same as religious culture independ of the religion itself.

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They had the culture down pat

Did they? Would it not be more accurate to say that, as people who considered themselves more righteous then the common folk, they considered themselves above the culture?

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You recently preached a sermon called “God wants to save Christians from hell.” I was discussing the message with a guy who after hearing this message was a bit disturbed and somehow came to the conclusion that you didn’t believe in a literal hell. Let me ask you, do you believe in a literal hell that is defined simply as eternal separation from God?

Well, there are people now who are seriously separated from God. So I would assume that God will leave room for people to say “no I don’t want any part of this”. My question would be, does grace win or is the human heart stronger than God’s love or grace. Who wins, does darkness and sin and hardness of heart win or does God’s love and grace win?

I don’t know why as a Christian you would have to make such declarative statements. Like your friend, does he want there to be a literal hell? I am a bit skeptical of somebody who argues that passionately for a literal hell, why would you be on that side? Like if you are going to pick causes, if you’re literally going to say these are the lines in the sand, I’ve got to know that people are going to burn forever, this is one of the things that you drive your stake in the ground on. I don’t understand that.

Especially when so many fail to recognize the hell that many people are experiencing today and do little about it.

Yeah, I would think it would be your duty as a Christian to hope and long and pray for somehow everybody to be reconciled to God. If you are really serious about evangelism, as I’m sure you friend would claim, and you wanted to save people from hell, then wouldn’t your hope be that everybody reconciles with God? Why would you hope for anything else? It would be your duty to long for that. I would actually ask questions about his salvation.

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Comments

Bell: "I don’t know why as a Christian you would have to make such declarative statements. Like your friend, does he want there to be a literal hell? I am a bit skeptical of somebody who argues that passionately for a literal hell, why would you be on that side? Like if you are going to pick causes, if you’re literally going to say these are the lines in the sand, I’ve got to know that people are going to burn forever, this is one of the things that you drive your stake in the ground on. I don’t understand that."

Two thoughts: I still don't know if Bell believes in a literal hell or not. Second, belief in a literal hell stems from Jesus' teaching (cf. Matthew 25). It does not mean that those who believe in a literal hell want people to go there.

I believe in literal hell. And, frankly, it tears me up to think people will go there. It does God too.

Bell is sooooooo evasive. Yeesh.

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Wow... I don't even know where to begin with this stream of nonsense. I thought pastors were supposed to give clear answers, not mush. Actually mush is probably too generous of a description. Seriously, this entire interview was one long ramble. I had no idea what Mr. Bell was trying to say most of the time. Did Mr. Bell even have an idea?

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I think I finally have enough information to put together how Mr. Bell views Christians who talk about sin, righteousness, and judgment. Let's see... we're unloving, cruel, power-mongering, and have warped views about people from other religions. We're also so arrogant and so self-righteous that anybody not like us deserves to go to hell. In fact, we want them there. They deserve it and we don't. Mwhahahaa!

Okay, all the sarcasm aside (I know it was alot) for now. I didn't write all this to be mean, but because believers should be made aware of people like Rob Bell. He is at best aberant in his theology and at worst heretical. I believe he is dangerous and is leading many people astray. Jesus said that we will know false prophets and teachers by their fruit. I'm not sure at this point if Rob Bell is one of these, but I'm starting to be concerned. To be safe, we should distance ourselves from him until he either repents or at least clarifies his teachings.

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Hmm, Sounds like the "concened Christians" has some issues of his own.

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Did Rob really say that his six year old listens to Jay-Z Unplugged? Have you read any of the lyrics of those songs? Not exactly in line with "Sex God" and certainly not able to print on this web site. Very vulgar and disturbed music. I hope somewhere there was a mistake!!!

Posted by MJH | Posted at 07/08/2007 7:52 PM

He did actually say that. It may have been and probably was a joke but I honestly don't know...

Posted by vic | Posted at 07/08/2007 8:12 PM

Vic, I heard back about the JayZ album Rob's son listens to. He said it was the edited version of the CD. (Via the church's email.) Unfortunately that version isn't any better. Removing the swear words doesn't remove the attitude toward multiple women.

Any way, I said I would get back, so I did.

The other web site with your interview is: planetpreterist.com/news-5326.html

I hope that helps. MJH

Posted by MHJ | Posted at 07/20/2007 3:23 PM

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ORIGINAL: GroupW

I think that's taking his beliefs a bit too far. I think it's more fair to say that he thinks it's difficult to separate the two. They are two faces of one coin. If they don't line up, then it's not the right coin. His perception and McLaren's I think rightly points out that modern evangelicals, of which I am one, have emphasized right-thinking over right-doing. That's been a huge a mistake of ours. I think he's trying to bring us back toward a better balance.

I don't see him arguing on behalf of a works-based salvation. Quite the opposite.

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ORIGINAL: mushhead

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ORIGINAL: GroupW

I think that's taking his beliefs a bit too far. I think it's more fair to say that he thinks it's difficult to separate the two. They are two faces of one coin. If they don't line up, then it's not the right coin. His perception and McLaren's I think rightly points out that modern evangelicals, of which I am one, have emphasized right-thinking over right-doing. That's been a huge a mistake of ours. I think he's trying to bring us back toward a better balance.

I don't see him arguing on behalf of a works-based salvation. Quite the opposite.

GroupW,
Who exactly emphasises right-thinking over right-doing? This is one of my main points of contention with EC personalities. While some might do this, the vast, vast majority do not. Yet, emergents take the media's portrayal of Christians, and the public's perception of Christian beliefs, and try to make it the status quo for evangelicalism. Nothing could be more untrue. All one has to do is listen to the sermons preached in most churches each week, read the books Christian authors are writing, and attend a few crusades, to realize that Christians are constantly teaching how to live out the Christian faith in everyday life.

With gentleness and respect, I say to you, GroupW, that you must avoid judging the church by your own experiences. And you must be far more discerning about McLaren and Bell. Remember, Bell's choice of that particular brick cannot be explained away as a poor choice of examples; that particular "brick" was chosen because of his beliefs about God. With that said, you might ask yourself if his unorthodox example, derived from unorthodox beliefs, is what led to his making a point that doesn't really express the truth about what is really going on in Christianity.

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Who exactly emphasises right-thinking over right-doing?

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Rob Bell Tolls On The Bible

Apprising Ministries has received many requests for critique of the false teachings of Emerging Church Pastor Rob Bell. And for some time now people have been contacting me here to put together some of his teachings in a nutshell for easier reference.

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Hopefully the thread doesn't grow too much in the interim

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We comfort ourselves with the knowledge that our doctrine is pure, but we'd rather not think about whether or not our communities would in any way feel the loss if our churches suddenly disappeared from our neighborhoods.

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“Somebody recently told me, “As long as you teach the Bible, I have no problem with you.” Think about that for a moment. What that person was really saying is, “As long as you teach my version of the Bible, I’ll have no problem with you.” And the more people insist that they are just taking the Bible for what it says, the more skeptical I get.

Which for me raises one huge question: Is the Bible the best God can do?”

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“A couple of questions this verse raises: How do we live this verse out? What does it mean to love? What isn’t love? Who decides what is love and what isn’t love? And what about your neighbor? Who is your neighbor? Is your neighbor only the person next door, or is it anyone you have contact with? Or is it every single human being on the face of the planet?

And what happens if one person’s definition of love and another person’s definition differ? Who is right? Who is wrong? Who decides who is right and who is wrong? Who decides if whoever decided made the right decision?

So even a verse as basic as this raises more questions than it answers.

…someone somewhere has to make decisions about this verse. Someone has to decide what it actually looks like to put flesh and blood on this command.

And that is because the Bible is open-ended.

It has to be interpreted. And if it isn’t interpreted, then it can’t be put into action. …We must first make decisions about what it means at this time, in this place, for these people.”

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ORIGINAL: P31W

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Hopefully the thread doesn't grow too much in the interim

ROFL you know it's going to go wild!!!

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Relevants are theologically conservative evangelicals who are not as interested in reshaping theology as much as updating such things as worship styles, preaching styles, and church leadership structures. Their goal is to be more relevant; thus, appealing to postmodern-minded people. Relevants commonly begin alternative worship services within evangelical churches to keep generally younger Christians from leaving their churches. They also plant new churches to reach emerging people. Relevant leaders look to people such as Dan Kimball, Donald Miller, and Rob Bell as like-minded leaders. The common critique of Relevants is that they are doing little more than conducting "cool church" for hip young Christians and are not seeing significant conversion growth. Within the Relevants there is also a growing group of outreach-minded Reformed Relevants, which look to men like John Piper, Tim Keller, and D. A. Carson for theological direction.

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A good example of why context is needed. My take on this is that he's talking about the cultural religion and not the underlying practice of faith. In some (as he says, not all!) cases, it may be best to let a buddhist christian remain in a buddhist cultural context and not try to make him exactly like me - an american-style evangelical. It's a big debate right now among those who study missions - how much should the underlying culture be "christianized". In the past, I think we've swung too far in creating little "mini-me's". It's not always been healthy. I think McLaren's vagueness here reflects the uncertainty a lot of us feel on this issue. How far do you push cultural aspects of Christianity. I really don't know.

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“I was talking to a pastor several years ago who was preparing a sermon, and I asked him if he was ready to give it. He said, “Oh yeah, I’ve got this passage nailed.” How is that possible?

When you embrace the text as living and active, when you enter into its story, when you keep turning the gem, you never come to the end.” p. 60

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ORIGINAL: GroupW

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ORIGINAL: mushhead

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Context is always necessary. I can't buy your implication here that he thinks God was defeated in any material sense.

Yes, sorry. I still think you're using this quote out of context. For any Christian writer, liberal or otherwise, to think of the kingdom of God and Christ as "defeated" is absurd. If that we're truly the case, we'd all lay down our bibles and quit buying his books. Even if he believed it, he wouldn't write it.

GroupW,
It concerns me…deeply! that you don’t understand why McLaren’s statements are not true under any circumstance. Under no circumstances, and in no way was Jesus defeated.

It likewise concerns me that you are unable to see the one manner in which the word "defeated" is appropriate. There is an apparent, illusory defeat of Christ on the cross. It's not a defeat in fact, only in appearance. In appearance, Ceasar wins. In fact, he loses.

Paul himself assents to that idea - to others, the cross is foolisness. To us, it's the grandest hope. It's a very simple and basic biblical idea that the weak is made strong and the strong is made weak. We live in an upside down kingdom. In the illusory "defeat" (not the quote marks, as in "so-called", "not real"), God claims victory - not just in the battle, but in the war.

I don't see the reason for the offense here. I'm sorry if that bugs you. The concept of the upside down kingdom is too biblical for me to back down on that one. I can't do it.

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For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength. (1Corinthians 1:25)

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If you look at some of the post-modern philosophers,