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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 1:06:56 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3610
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From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
"A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point. "We have all experienced the futility of trying to change a strong conviction, especially if the convinced person has some investment in his belief. We are familiar with the variety of ingenious defenses with which people protect their convictions, managing to keep them unscathed through the most devastating attacks. "But man's resourcefulness goes beyond simply protecting a belief. Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, that he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally, suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: what will happen? The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view. "
LINK
This is about a different topic, but the conclusions are parallel.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 1:11:23 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4279
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
I can state for myself that until just awhile ago I was heavily involved in helping others.( and I am not bragging, please don't take it that way) Here is where I am, by what I see is that P31W, Jazzact13, Lapitoh, Mushhead and any one else who spends more than fifteen minuties on this web site. Is not doing what the Lord has required us to do. Just by what time you spend here, would lead me to those conclusions.
So has a story Jesus once said to the masses. That he was in future going to seperate the sheeps and the goats. Which one and be honest to yourself, category would you be right now?
For me it's kind a hard to help someone and finger pick a keyboard.
 sheep here
You're seriously saying the time spent on these boards is being disobedient to God?
You do realize that many (certainly not all) but many people here are homebound and this is their ministry to others?
And for others, it's part of their own sanctification to struggle with some of the topics being discussed here.
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 1:14:38 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3610
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jayvance
quote:
Numbers is a sign of inclusionism. Holiness is a sign of the Gospel being spread.
Do you think the Church has to settle for one or the other? Certainly in the New Testament church, numbers weren't a sign of inclusionism, they were a sign that the power of God was evident among the believers. It's far too easy for a lot of us old-school Christians to use the old "it's not about numbers" excuse to justify the fact that our churches are stagnant or declining. Conversely, we find it comforting to attack those whose ministries ARE growing rapidly by accusing them of "compromising the Gospel" in order to "draw a crowd." We tell ourselves that "Jesus couldn't keep a crowd either." But all of that is just self-justification, when you come right down to it. Jesus Himself said "the harvest is plentiful," so the problem is not that there aren't people out there who would respond to a message of truth spoken in love. I think the problem is that there aren't enough Christians willing to SPEAK the truth in love and LIVE OUT the Gospel message in a way that's relevant to our culture. We just don't want to admit that the old way of doing things simply isn't effective in this day and time. Just because some in the EC movement have missed the boat by abandoning sound doctrine, that doesn't mean we should ignore the value of using new approaches to minister to a post-modern, post-Christian culture.
Jay
What you say is true Jay.
And I agree with the "page" you're reading from.
But, you can also realize that forum statements aren't
always "from the same page."
I was responding to the accusation that a small church isn't doing anything.
But the mega-church is by venue of the masses attracted.
Lakeland attracted tens of thousands. But, look at it now in all honesty.
We can all do "good" works in the name of Jesus, but there is coming a time
when we will be confronted by some of them and be told we weren't authorized
to do those "good" works. In other words, they are in deed good works, but at
the same time "dead" works.
If we are loving God with all our heart and being, we are doing what is required.
One may be feeding ten million, another may be feeding five. Which is being
more spiritual?
In this day and time, we spend too much comparing ourselves with ourselves.
I admit I am guilty just like everyone else. Yet, some things are not to be judged
with our intelligence, but by the very Word of God itself.
God said "Go." Yet, in other places He says they went, but I didn't send them.
Fine line to define at times.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 1:17:14 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3610
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
I can state for myself that until just awhile ago I was heavily involved in helping others.( and I am not bragging, please don't take it that way) Here is where I am, by what I see is that P31W, Jazzact13, Lapitoh, Mushhead and any one else who spends more than fifteen minuties on this web site. Is not doing what the Lord has required us to do. Just by what time you spend here, would lead me to those conclusions.
So has a story Jesus once said to the masses. That he was in future going to seperate the sheeps and the goats. Which one and be honest to yourself, category would you be right now?
For me it's kind a hard to help someone and finger pick a keyboard.
sheep here
You're seriously saying the time spent on these boards is being disobedient to God?
You do realize that many (certainly not all) but many people here are homebound and this is their ministry to others?
And for others, it's part of their own sanctification to struggle with some of the topics being discussed here.
Ditto. Here we're judging ourselves to ourselves again. LOL.
I hold down a full time job, pastor a church, take care of the grounds of
my own home, the church property, and the home of a widow. And then
there are the other things we just do. "Not when we have time, but when
we make time."
So, time on the net means we aren't doing anything?
Is this people living in glass houses throwing stones? LOL.
I know they aren't, but trying to express themselves.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 1:55:51 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 515
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
Totally disagree. As they say in sports, look at the scoreboard. If most Christians and most Christian churches WERE in fact actively sharing the Gospel in a relevant way and impacting their communities in practical ways, the Christian church would not be in the decline it's in, plain and simple. If you don't think the American church overall is in decline, then I guess there's no use continuing this discussion.
BTW, I'm not "slandering" Christians who ARE sharing their faith actively, since those folks wouldn't fall into the category of those who AREN'T sharing their faith, which is the category of people I was describing.
quote:
38 I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.” (John 4:38) jayvance,
So the people, Jesus referred to in the above passage, who did the hard work of preparing the field for harvest, but who didn't experience the joy of the harvest, were not actually doing their duty as followers of God? And the missionaries who spend virtually their entire ministry working in an area but see little or no actual conversions are not out sharing the message of Jesus?
The definition of success is not how many new people walk through the door. The definition of success in Jesus' economy is faithfulness to God's commands. It sure seems you are making broad and sweeping judgments about the faithfulness of others based on the appearance of a certain kind of fruit. That standard is not Biblical, and the judgement unsubstantiated.
That said, I agree that too many people do not share their faith. What I take issue with is making sweeping judgments based on appearances.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 2:07:21 PM
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jayvance
Posts: 58
Joined: 3/23/2007
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quote:
The definition of success is not how many new people walk through the door. The definition of success in Jesus' economy is faithfulness to God's commands. It sure seems you are making broad and sweeping judgments about the faithfulness of others based on the appearance of a certain kind of fruit. That standard is not Biblical, and the judgement unsubstantiated.
What I take issue with is making sweeping judgments based on appearances.
If it will make things clearer, let's confine the discussion to American churches at large. I'm expressing my opinion that OVERALL American churches and American Christians are in a state of decline or stagnation, by any yardstick you care to use. For instance, God's command to the church was to go into all the world and make disciples, correct? By that standard, would you agree that most American churches are in decline or stagnant? Or can you name any other standard that you consider Biblical, fair and reasonable by which MOST American churches are NOT in decline or stagnant?
Obviously within the context of my general statement there are exceptions. But the exceptions don't negate the general conclusion, just as the overall conclusion doesn't negate the exceptions.
Jay
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 2:48:21 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3610
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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I like that.
We'll have it both ways. lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 3:56:33 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13quote:
The Pharisees did not consider themselves above culture - they considered themselves guardians of it. There's a difference.
And they were more out-of-touch with the culture then they realized. No, they come off as being more concerned about their own righteousness then the culture around them.
You prove my point here - they come off as being more concerned about righteousness than the culture around them TODAY. In hindsight. In their own day, they were fairly well respected.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 4:23:36 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
Ditto. Here we're judging ourselves to ourselves again. LOL.
I hold down a full time job, pastor a church, take care of the grounds of
my own home, the church property, and the home of a widow. And then
there are the other things we just do. "Not when we have time, but when
we make time."
So, time on the net means we aren't doing anything?
Is this people living in glass houses throwing stones? LOL.
I know they aren't, but trying to express themselves.
Again I am not having a problem with people who try to do what the scriptures or what God requires us to do. Yet let us get realistic. If we say that we have it all down pat and there is no room for improvement. Then we are decieving ourselves in the matter.
I know of a Pastor of a Bapitist church in the sixties and early seventies who thought that by going around at the time to different speaking engagements around USA. That he was performing a great work. But in the mean time the church was actual going backwards as far as really making a connection even to the sheep he was missing the mark. When it was brought to his attention that he either need to watch over his flock or go around the country, but not both at the same time. He notice that he had done wrong then proceed to change his lifestyle.
Which sad to say the church had no out reach in the community except handing out tracts on the streets and airports. If someone came to that church needing help would be sent to the Catolic church or a goverment progam. Which we know Uncle Sam screws things up a lot.
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 4:36:21 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
quote:
“The idea that everybody else approaches the Bible with baggage and agendas and lenses and I don’t is the ultimate in arrogance. .” p. 54
Crankius,'
Isn't this arrogant approach exactly what Bell is doing by teaching about and from the Bible in the section you are quoting? Isn't he telling us that he's got it right and anyone that disagrees is...what's the phrase he uses over and over again...oh yeah! "It's just not true." So anyone that disagrees is plain wrong.
Yes! Good point.
Not a very good point at all. In the above quote, it's only arrogance if you think you're the unbiased person and everyone else is looking at the world through a different and warped lens. He's pretty clear that he lumps himself in with everybody else on this issue.
Still, though I have to recognize my bias, I still need to be able to make some definitive statements. I may have a bias, but there remains a right and a wrong answer. I need to be able to say that, even though my own statement is subject to bias. I need to be able to make my statements - you need to be able to take them with a grain of salt and test them yourself. That's why he writes that he doesn't have it nailed. Go ahead, test it. See what you think.
If I believe everyone is biased, I have to be able to say "Hey dudes, we're all biased."
Let's say that counter with the response that "No - this particular group of people is not biased."
Well, now I have a choice. I can say, "You're wrong, we're all biased." Or I can shut up and say nothing. There's not a lot of middle ground here. So at this point, Bell is darned if he does and darned if he doesn't. If he says "No you're wrong - we all carry a bias" then he's accused of being arrogant. If he says nothing, he's either being a) too tolerant which is a common criticism of the EMC, or b) he's forced to implicity agree by shutting up.
Being humble doesn't preclude the necessity of making strong statements. We have historical and biblical examples of any number of humble people standing up and saying, "No, you're wrong." In this case, I think the importance of the point he's making is such that I think it's worth risking accusations of arrogance.
Many bone-headed things have been done in the name of Christ because people weren't able to recognize their own biases. Self-criticism today within the evangelical church seems to be a bit of a lost art. We have a lot of "holy cows" (speaking of cultural distinctives here, not doctrinal) that we're unwilling to slaughter and unwilling to even inspect. Many of these things are good and proper. Some may not be. The thing is, on some of them it's impossible to even have a rational discussion on the topic. '
That's not a good thing.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 8/21/2008 4:56:17 PM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 4:39:04 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
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I total don't agree with Bell in his walk in life all the time. Just this week in the e-mail from Mars Hill of Grand Rapids MI. Recieved a statement that we are going to get another teaching Pastor(which to use that word doesn't fit the job descrition). Which Mr. Bell would teach at the Most 27 weeks a year and the other one picking up the rest of the tap.
WhichI can't understand what takes a person so long to come up with something to talk about for 45 mins. Just fathoms my mind. One other thought; we are all ministers for God full-time. in our daily walk with him and humans.
You don't have to be putting money at the subject. But showing compassion towards a individual goes a long, long way.
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 4:45:32 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
But by golly their doctrine is right.
Then it can certainly be argued that their doctrine is NOT right.
I think you could argue that, certainly. I don't find the argument convincing, though. Isn't it possible to know the truth, but not do it? I can give intellectual assent to trinitarian theology, the "sola's", "TULIP", the Belgic confession, the Westminster confession, etc ad nauseaum but still not demonstrate love for my neighbor.
I don't find the argument convincing because I've known too many pastors and educated laymen who could teach flawless theology but somehow couldn't connect with people and meet even the simplest needs of their communities. Their focus was on doctrine, not on love which Christ tells us is the first commandment. Love of God first, and love of neighbor second. If you exhibit no love for the neighbor, then I have to question your love of God. Still, for these people, I will stand by my statement that their doctrine was flawless.
It can never be doctrine alone. Doctrine alone is powerless without the love of God to give it feet and hands.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 4:50:04 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
I hold down a full time job, pastor a church, take care of the grounds of
my own home, the church property, and the home of a widow. And then
there are the other things we just do. "Not when we have time, but when
we make time."
.
Please bottle some of your energy and send it my way. I'm tipping my virtual hat in your direction. Any comments I make henceforward about the evangelical church not doing it's job of loving its neighbor shouldn't be construed as applying to you personally. (Generally speaking, I'm more impressed with the folks I meet here on Crosswalk than I am with the folks that I meet in most of our churches. I think the folks here are genuinely more engaged in the practice of their faith than the average Christian. I might not share their opinions, but they have my respect.)
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 4:55:20 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
I total don't agree with Bell in his walk in life all the time. Just this week in the e-mail from Mars Hill of Grand Rapids MI. Recieved a statement that we are going to get another teaching Pastor(which to use that word doesn't fit the job descrition). Which Mr. Bell would teach at the Most 27 weeks a year and the other one picking up the rest of the tap.
WhichI can't understand what takes a person so long to come up with something to talk about for 45 mins. Just fathoms my mind. One other thought; we are all ministers for God full-time. in our daily walk with him and humans.
You don't have to be putting money at the subject. But showing compassion towards a individual goes a long, long way.
That would bug me a bit as well. I tend to think, if you want to be a pastor then be a pastor. If you want to be a writer, be a writer. I don't think either is done particularly well on a part-time basis.
As far as a 45 minute sermon taking time to prepare, I can tell you our pastor typically spends about 30 hours doing research and preparatory work. To do a serious job of breaking a text down into manageable chunks, there's a tremendous amount of work to do it right:
-how the words were used historically back then,
-what cultural connotations might have been affixed to those words in the day they were written,
-what was going on historically in the area, in the local scene, in the world, etc.
Doesn't sound like as much work as it is. When my wife does her school work, a single paper that takes 20-30 minutes to read takes about 40 hours to write.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 6:28:49 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 515
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jayvance
quote:
The definition of success is not how many new people walk through the door. The definition of success in Jesus' economy is faithfulness to God's commands. It sure seems you are making broad and sweeping judgments about the faithfulness of others based on the appearance of a certain kind of fruit. That standard is not Biblical, and the judgement unsubstantiated.
What I take issue with is making sweeping judgments based on appearances.
If it will make things clearer, let's confine the discussion to American churches at large. I'm expressing my opinion that OVERALL American churches and American Christians are in a state of decline or stagnation, by any yardstick you care to use. For instance, God's command to the church was to go into all the world and make disciples, correct? By that standard, would you agree that most American churches are in decline or stagnant? Or can you name any other standard that you consider Biblical, fair and reasonable by which MOST American churches are NOT in decline or stagnant?
Obviously within the context of my general statement there are exceptions. But the exceptions don't negate the general conclusion, just as the overall conclusion doesn't negate the exceptions.
Jay
Talking just about American churches: I do not judge decline in broadbrushing statements. It is something that has to be determined by particular individual situations. This is because some things have to happen that are out of our controle, i.e. the Holy Spirit is the one that convicts people of their need for salvation not us. Christians are only responsible to be messengers of the good news. Also, we live in a culture that indoctrinates children in a humanististic worldview that calls religion foolishness and unsophisticated. This causes people to be increasingly skeptical of religious claims. Now, postmodernism, which is not "after modernism" so much as it is a worldview that flows naturally from Darwinism, is also indoctrinating children to be tolerant which is essentially the belief that everyone has their own truth and no truth is better than anyone elses. We Christians enter into this enviornment with a gospel message that is received by people taught that our beliefs are based on superstition, and are unloving, intolerant, unsophisticated and unscientific. These views are taught to them in the public schools, reinforced by the media, holywood, and the emerging church. Is it any wonder the church is in decline. A related example is my home mission field here in Utah. Churches do a lot of outreach. People do a lot to show the love of Christ. Yet, I can name thirty churches that inspite of doing all that haven't baptised more than two or three people a year for each of the last three years. Are they being unfaithful or is the culture of deception we live and minister in have something to do with it. The same situation exists all over this country, the only difference is the form the deception takes.
Also, we have the very real possibility that in 1Peter God is telling us that as we get closer to the return of Christ that fewer and fewer people will actually get saved. One thing we do know is that things are going to get worse, not better for the church as that day approaches. So, many, many factors are involved in the determination of why a church is in decline. It cannot be broadbrushed. Yes, some are guilty of disobedience. But I have encountered far too many loving and faithful people in far too many solid churches that would be declared in decline by you that do not fit your description.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 6:50:10 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
Talking just about American churches: I do not judge decline in broadbrushing statements. It is something that has to be determined by particular individual situations. This is because some things have to happen that are out of our controle, i.e. the Holy Spirit is the one that convicts people of their need for salvation not us. Christians are only responsible to be messengers of the good news. Also, we live in a culture that indoctrinates children in a humanististic worldview that calls religion foolishness and unsophisticated. This causes people to be increasingly skeptical of religious claims.
I agree with this. Current conservative churches, however, don't seem to be particularly prepared to deal with this. One strength of a person like Bell is his ability to communicate successfully to such indoctrinated folk. It's the one thing I think we could learn from him. I think it's the one thing we need to learn. I don't know if Bell is the best one to teach us that or not. But we need to know, and he's taking a stab at it. That deserves some credit along with the criticism.
quote:
But I have encountered far too many loving and faithful people in far too many solid churches that would be declared in decline by you that do not fit your description.
This is also probably a very fair comment.
quote:
Now, postmodernism, which is not "after modernism" so much as it is a worldview that flows naturally from Darwinism, ...
This is really not part of the debate here, but I think Darwin was not a cause of the trend toward post-modern thought but is really wrapped up within it as just a symptom. Elements of post-modernity can be seen within Romanticism that sought to recapture some of the mystery that was lost in the Enlightenment. Throughout most of the 1800's, there is a very clear, growing disenchantment with the ideas in the Enlightenment that thought just about everything could be explained rationally through the reliance of some sort of natural law. Philosophically, the underpinnings of post-modernity were already in place by Darwin's time. He's the Christian poster child for it, but really more of a symptom than a cause. In some ways he's actually more modern than post-modern.
The real kicker for post-modernity happened in WWI, the collapse of the Weimar Republic afterward, the rise of National Socialism in Germany and the destruction of WWII. Trends that were already established pre-Darwin caught a major tailwind and put the coup de grace (at least in Europe) on the church and what we think of today as Modern thought.
There's also a bit of a misconception of what post-modern thought really expresses about truth. It's not completely accurate to say that "my truth is as good as yours." I think a better description of it would be that "you are no better messenger of truth than I am". It's not so much Truth that is doubted as the bearer of it.
Sorry for the history lesson - I don't think you need it, but thought I might try to clarify for someone else that might stumble onto this.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 7:06:23 PM
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jayvance
Posts: 58
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Talking just about American churches: I do not judge decline in broadbrushing statements. It is something that has to be determined by particular individual situations. This is because some things have to happen that are out of our controle, i.e. the Holy Spirit is the one that convicts people of their need for salvation not us. Christians are only responsible to be messengers of the good news. Also, we live in a culture that indoctrinates children in a humanististic worldview that calls religion foolishness and unsophisticated. This causes people to be increasingly skeptical of religious claims. Now, postmodernism, which is not "after modernism" so much as it is a worldview that flows naturally from Darwinism, is also indoctrinating children to be tolerant which is essentially the belief that everyone has their own truth and no truth is better than anyone elses. We Christians enter into this enviornment with a gospel message that is received by people taught that our beliefs are based on superstition, and are unloving, intolerant, unsophisticated and unscientific. These views are taught to them in the public schools, reinforced by the media, holywood, and the emerging church. Is it any wonder the church is in decline. A related example is my home mission field here in Utah. Churches do a lot of outreach. People do a lot to show the love of Christ. Yet, I can name thirty churches that inspite of doing all that haven't baptised more than two or three people a year for each of the last three years. Are they being unfaithful or is the culture of deception we live and minister in have something to do with it. The same situation exists all over this country, the only difference is the form the deception takes.
I hear what you're saying, believe me. I would note that while we may not be able to fully appreciate it, the early church's situation was not that dissimilar to our own in that they were surrounded by many of the same kinds of worldviews you describe. Yet somehow they were able to grow both numerically and in spiritual maturity. Now I fully agree with you that there are going to be specific geographical areas, here and abroad, that will offer greater resistance to the Gospel message than other areas might; certainly Utah would qualify in my book! So of course we can't paint EVERY church and EVERY Christian with the same general observations--and I'm not trying to do that. But it is possible to observe and comment on the OVERALL state of the church in America, and that's what I'm trying to do with my comments.
I'd also like to touch on your statement about post-modern society viewing the church as "unloving, intolerant, unsophisticated and unscientific." I think it's only reasonable for the church to ask ourselves the hard question as to WHY we are perceived that way, and be willing to admit that it may be partly our fault. A lot of Christian churches and church people ARE, in fact, unloving and intolerant. Furthermore, in the post-modern age, there's no excuse for Christians not to present the message in a more sophisticated manner than, say, 50 years ago. Is it more work? Yes! Would it be much easier for us to keep clinging to the old-school methods of half a century ago? You bet! But it is what it is. We are responsible to God for engaging our culture in a way that is relevant to THEM, not in a way that is relevant to US.
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Also, we have the very real possibility that in 1Peter God is telling us that as we get closer to the return of Christ that fewer and fewer people will actually get saved. One thing we do know is that things are going to get worse, not better for the church as that day approaches.
That's certainly an issue that must be considered. I certainly don't subscribe to dominion theology, that's for sure.
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So, many, many factors are involved in the determination of why a church is in decline. It cannot be broadbrushed. Yes, some are guilty of disobedience. But I have encountered far too many loving and faithful people in far too many solid churches that would be declared in decline by you that do not fit your description.
Again, to clarify, I'm not painting ALL CHURCHES with the same broad brush, I'm making general statements about the state of the American church OVERALL. Let's see if I can illustrate it this way. In the county where I live, the teen pregnancy rate is among the highest in the nation. So if I say the teen pregnancy rate is out of control or use some other descriptive language to comment on that situation, of course I understand that not ALL teenagers in our county are getting pregnant. But that doesn't change the fact that the teen pregnancy rate is, in fact, out of control.
Jay
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/21/2008 8:29:54 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 515
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: GroupW
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ORIGINAL: crankius
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ORIGINAL: mushhead
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“The idea that everybody else approaches the Bible with baggage and agendas and lenses and I don’t is the ultimate in arrogance. .” p. 54
Crankius,'
Isn't this arrogant approach exactly what Bell is doing by teaching about and from the Bible in the section you are quoting? Isn't he telling us that he's got it right and anyone that disagrees is...what's the phrase he uses over and over again...oh yeah! "It's just not true." So anyone that disagrees is plain wrong.
Yes! Good point.
Not a very good point at all. In the above quote, it's only arrogance if you think you're the unbiased person and everyone else is looking at the world through a different and warped lens. He's pretty clear that he lumps himself in with everybody else on this issue.
Still, though I have to recognize my bias, I still need to be able to make some definitive statements. I may have a bias, but there remains a right and a wrong answer.
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Not a very good point at all. In the above quote, it's only arrogance if you think you're the unbiased person and everyone else is looking at the world through a different and warped lens. He's pretty clear that he lumps himself in with everybody else on this issue.
GroupW,
It is a valid point. Bell is telling us that anyone who thinks they have it right is arrogant, yet in the same breath he doing just that. Don't be confused by his language. Nothing he, McLaren, Jones, Pagitt or any of their associates suggest they have it wrong. The only thing they allow for is that they don't have it all figured out, but they never suggest that the stuff they are currently teaching might be wrong.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/22/2008 7:53:17 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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I don't find the argument convincing because I've known too many pastors and educated laymen who could teach flawless theology but somehow couldn't connect with people and meet even the simplest needs of their communities. Their focus was on doctrine, not on love which Christ tells us is the first commandment. Love of God first, and love of neighbor second. If you exhibit no love for the neighbor, then I have to question your love of God. Still, for these people, I will stand by my statement that their doctrine was flawless.
It can never be doctrine alone. Doctrine alone is powerless without the love of God to give it feet and hands.
Group,
For me I have noticed something. It's the Spiritural Gifts we have and the way it makes us all just a little differant. For the person with the spiritural gift of teaching and preaching most of the time it's their dedication to present to the people the truth that is their way of showing love to others.
For the person with the Spiritural Gift of mercy it's showing unconditional love that is they way they show love (the way most people can "spot" and consider "love" from a human point of view)
Both groups if not careful can fall into sin. The first by not stopping to realize that by "only' focusing on doctrine they are forgetting the "human touch" they need to offer out and for the last group they can allow people to live in sin and won't correct the root of their problem thereby hurting the very people they "appear" to be loving.
We are not islands rarther a body with differant parts. And insuring you teach correct doctrine is a form of love.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/22/2008 8:40:20 AM >
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/22/2008 7:55:31 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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As far as a 45 minute sermon taking time to prepare, I can tell you our pastor typically spends about 30 hours doing research and preparatory work. To do a serious job of breaking a text down into manageable chunks, there's a tremendous amount of work to do it right:
-how the words were used historically back then,
-what cultural connotations might have been affixed to those words in the day they were written,
-what was going on historically in the area, in the local scene, in the world, etc.
Doesn't sound like as much work as it is. When my wife does her school work, a single paper that takes 20-30 minutes to read takes about 40 hours to write.
Amen!!!! When I was teaching adults it was for me pretty much a full time job. I don't know how people who have fulltime jobs and teach adults can do both.
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/22/2008 8:24:42 AM
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jazzact13
Posts: 485
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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So has a story Jesus once said to the masses. That he was in future going to seperate the sheeps and the goats. Which one and be honest to yourself, category would you be right now?
Ok, people...
Cheap Guilt Trip Time!!!!
...that's right, people, it's because YOUR actions, what YOU do, don't measure up to this one person's ideas of what you should be doing, you, we are sorry but glad to say, are among those who are hellbound.
Granted, this person likely knows next to nothing about your life, has no idea of the things you do day in and day out, and frankly is showing a judgmentalism that is horrifying in it's arrogance, but that will not keep you, yes you, from being on the goats who are told to leave the presence of God.
Seriously, mcleod, this is stupid. If your convictions tell you to stop posting here, by all means do so, especially if that's the best we're going to get from you.
But I do not accept your judgment of me. You are not my judge, and that you hold yourself in the position to say such a thing is to my mind a sign of your own pride.
So, go, if that is what you must do.
_____________________________
there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/22/2008 8:36:44 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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The only thing they allow for is that they don't have it all figured out, but they never suggest that the stuff they are currently teaching might be wrong.
Good point. Nor the way inwhich they teach what they teach may be wrong.
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/22/2008 8:42:38 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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jazzact13
Ignore them. When people don't have anything intelligent to add to a conversation concerning the subject matter they resort to name calling. Don't let them get to you. It's a trick from Satan to keep the "truth" from being exposed.
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/22/2008 8:44:21 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3143
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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Nor the way inwhich they teach what they teach may be wrong. If people are coming to a saving knowledge of the Lord,how can the way in which the Gospel presented be wrong??
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/22/2008 8:58:27 AM
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