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Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/21/2008 11:39:58 AM
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Jhud
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From the article:
Butteville Union Elementary School District trustees, as well as school administrators, are considering adding “intelligent design” to the school’s seventh-grade science curriculum.
In a discussion on an information/action agenda item, “Evolution versus Intelligent Design Taught in the Classroom,” during the district’s board meeting last Wednesday, trustees agreed to seek legal counsel regarding the issue.
“I think this will be a big issue in the Supreme Court before long,” said board president Stephen Darger, a practicing attorney and former police officer. “Maybe it will be with this school.”
Intelligent design is a theory which posits that the universe is so complex that it must have been created by an “unspecified higher power.”
Court cases in recent years involving the teaching of intelligent design in public schools, including two highly publicized California cases, have resulted in lawsuits against the schools and loss of government funding.
In a 2006 landmark lawsuit, a Dover, Penn., school was successfully blocked by Americans United from teaching intelligent design alongside evolution in high school biology classes. The court ruled that intelligent design was religion shrouded as science and that it cannot be taught as an alternative to evolution in public school science classes.
The following month, two rural California public high schools contended that the Pennsylvania ruling by Judge John E. Jones, an appointee of President Bush, opened the door to the possibility of teaching intelligent design in philosophy or religion classes
But the new strategy was immediately struck down when a high school in Lebec, Calif., a rural town north of Los Angeles, terminated one such course as part of a court settlement involving 11 law suits. As a result, a hearing scheduled before a federal judge in upcoming days was cancelled.
In a similar case just days later Frazier Mountain High, a rural school district outside of Fresno, with pressure from lawsuits and Americans United, settled the issue with the agreement to halt its intelligent design course and to never again offer a class that promotes creationism.
Darger said that in order to legally teach intelligent design in a public school the subject would have to remain entirely secular and only offer possible explanations for what evolution cannot explain.
He cited a decision nearly 20 years ago in the case of Edwards v. Aguillar, where the Supreme Court concluded that “teaching a variety of scientific theories about the origins of humankind to school children might be validly done with the clear secular intent of enhancing the effectiveness of science instruction.”
Urrghhh!!! It so hard to contain these Americans - they keep thinking and speaking about things they shouldn't!
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Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/21/2008 12:07:21 PM
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essentialsaltes
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"trustees agreed to seek legal counsel regarding the issue"
If they intend to put ID in science classes, I think Dover settled the matter pretty conclusively and legal counsel will, I hope, prevent local taxpayers from wasting money.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/21/2008 12:08:46 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
If they intend to put ID in science classes, I think Dover settled the matter pretty conclusively and legal counsel will, I hope, prevent local taxpayers from wasting money.
Actually Dover wasn't a national precedent.
Either way, the courts will never stop this - in fact they can't.
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Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/21/2008 12:11:09 PM
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DanJames
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You gotta credit Bobxxxx for being really funny. He posted this comment on the article site:
quote:
bobxxxx
16 hours ago
Butteville Union Elementary School District trustees, as well as school administrators, are considering adding MAGIC to the schools seventh-grade science curriculum.
In a discussion on an information/action agenda item, SCIENCE versus MAGIC Taught in the Classroom, during the districts board meeting last Wednesday, trustees agreed to seek legal counsel regarding the issue.
'MAGIC states that because of the complexity of the universe it must have been created by an unspecified MAGIC MAN, Clarke said. This leaves the possibilities wide open for what the MAGIC MAN could be CREATURES FROM ANOTHER PLANET, multiple SKY FAIRIES....anything.
Of course everyone know the designer of intelligent design magic is the Christian God. The Butteville Union Elementary School District trustees are morons who want to make our country a theocracy. They also want to force biology teachers to teach MAGIC.
So beware of the Church of the Magic Man who wants to overthrow our government and change it into a Theocracy. Alert authorities if you see any MAGIC BIBLES, SKY FARIES, or RANDOMLY CAPITALIZED WORDS.
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/21/2008 12:43:53 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1062
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From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
If they intend to put ID in science classes, I think Dover settled the matter pretty conclusively and legal counsel will, I hope, prevent local taxpayers from wasting money.
Actually Dover wasn't a national precedent.
Not national, no, but I would be surprised if the courts in CA would disagree.
quote:
Either way, the courts will never stop this - in fact they can't.
If 'this' is teaching ID in the classroom, the courts stopped it in Lebec.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/21/2008 12:57:37 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Not national, no, but I would be surprised if the courts in CA would disagree.
Me too - the judges there are complete loons. But no one is obligated to anticipate rulings.
quote:
If 'this' is teaching ID in the classroom, the courts stopped it in Lebec.
Courts will certainly pause such efforts for awhile, but the reality is (and I say this as someone who works closely with our school board) it will come up again, either in a different form, or simply be less public. Courts are horrible (thankfully) at squelching ideas in our society, and Americans have always been resistant to such efforts.
I know one our science teachers is considering certain texts that are more amenable to ID concepts, though the average person would be hard pressed to identify them as such.
At some point, secularists are going to have to find a different method of advancing their ideas, because the courts are failing them.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/21/2008 1:47:10 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Not national, no, but I would be surprised if the courts in CA would disagree.
Me too - the judges there are complete loons.
I would prefer to say that they are good representatives of the local populace, but it amounts to the same thing.
quote:
I know one our science teachers is considering certain texts that are more amenable to ID concepts, though the average person would be hard pressed to identify them as such.
Is this part of the ID plan to achieve scientific respectability in the free market of ideas? -- Sneaking oblique references into high school textbooks?
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/21/2008 1:51:46 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Not national, no, but I would be surprised if the courts in CA would disagree.
Me too - the judges there are complete loons.
I would prefer to say that they are good representatives of the local populace, but it amounts to the same thing.
quote:
I know one our science teachers is considering certain texts that are more amenable to ID concepts, though the average person would be hard pressed to identify them as such.
Is this part of the ID plan to achieve scientific respectability in the free market of ideas? -- Sneaking oblique references into high school textbooks?
I think a better strategy would be to have a high school biology substitute volunteer to be sued for teaching creation. He could be represented in court by an activist organization of lawyers, and then have the mass media portray him as the hero. We could make a black and white play out of it.
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/21/2008 2:08:14 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
I think a better strategy would be to have a high school biology substitute volunteer to be sued for teaching creation. He could be represented in court by an activist organization of lawyers, and then have the mass media portray him as the hero. We could make a black and white play out of it.
That strategy has been tried many times, but it keeps failing at the mass media/hero part.
Also, if you want to follow the Inherit the Wind playbook, the state law won't actually be changed for another 40 years.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/21/2008 2:31:55 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
I would prefer to say that they are good representatives of the local populace, but it amounts to the same thing.
Now that's funny..
quote:
Is this part of the ID plan to achieve scientific respectability in the free market of ideas? -- Sneaking oblique references into high school textbooks?
I am not sure it has much to do with ID per se, and more with parents and their representatives who don't care for what they see as indoctrination, even if it is court enforced. The effort wouldn't succeed if it was the product of some little ID cabal somewhere.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/21/2008 3:56:30 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
I think a better strategy would be to have a high school biology substitute volunteer to be sued for teaching creation. He could be represented in court by an activist organization of lawyers, and then have the mass media portray him as the hero. We could make a black and white play out of it.
That strategy has been tried many times, but it keeps failing at the mass media/hero part.
Also, if you want to follow the Inherit the Wind playbook, the state law won't actually be changed for another 40 years.
I was worried that nobody would catch that reference after I posted it. Thanks, ES, you have a mind like a bear trap.
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/21/2008 4:28:33 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
At some point, secularists are going to have to find a different method of advancing their ideas, because the courts are failing them.
What?!?!?! How can you say that? See Kansas, Dover, ... ID creationists have lost each and every court battle. When has there been a failure for secularists?
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/21/2008 4:51:32 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
What?!?!?! How can you say that? See Kansas, Dover, ... ID creationists have lost each and every court battle. When has there been a failure for secularists?
Which has failed to stop people from teaching intelligent design, my point exactly.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/21/2008 4:53:29 PM
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cow451
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How does one pronounce "Butteville"?
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/21/2008 9:08:50 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
What?!?!?! How can you say that? See Kansas, Dover, ... ID creationists have lost each and every court battle. When has there been a failure for secularists?
Which has failed to stop people from teaching intelligent design, my point exactly.
Ah. I see what you mean now. The courts cannot prevent people from breaking laws; they can, should and do stop them when they are brought to trial.
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/21/2008 11:48:00 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Ah. I see what you mean now. The courts cannot prevent people from breaking laws; they can, should and do stop them when they are brought to trial.
No, the law cannot keep people from expressing ideas, teaching their children what they believe to be right, or make something that is not true, true - the law has no such power.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/22/2008 12:43:07 AM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Ah. I see what you mean now. The courts cannot prevent people from breaking laws; they can, should and do stop them when they are brought to trial.
No, the law cannot keep people from expressing ideas, teaching their children what they believe to be right, or make something that is not true, true - the law has no such power.
I agree. Parents are free to promote ideas, whether religious or not to their children. The law cannot and should not stop them.
However, the law can stop people from violating the US Constitution. Specifically, the law can stop the promotion of religion in public schools' science classrooms. The courts have been successful in stopping this each and every time it has come up. I have no doubt the results will be the same next time too. -- Which from the looks of things will be soon.
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/22/2008 9:26:06 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
However, the law can stop people from violating the US Constitution. Specifically, the law can stop the promotion of religion in public schools' science classrooms. The courts have been successful in stopping this each and every time it has come up. I have no doubt the results will be the same next time too. -- Which from the looks of things will be soon.
Actually, vis a vis intelligent design, one judge with rather limited jurisdiction has ruled on the activities of one school board using one curriculum. This of course doesn’t apply to the vast majority of schools in the US, some of whom who be reluctant because of the activity, some of whom will be emboldened to challenge the ruling in their own courts.
And this is the problem with such rulings; while something like ‘prayer’ is a readily identifiable religious activity, discussions about origins are not – and so absent the ability to monitor thousands of teachers and their daily discussions with students, the ability to maintain any sort of line here is virtually impossible.
Vague rulings applied to ordinary human expressions communicating about metaphysically ambiguous subjects really don’t rise to the level of enforceable law – and so the secularists will ever be chasing their tails on this.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/22/2008 10:08:17 AM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Vague rulings applied to ordinary human expressions communicating about metaphysically ambiguous subjects really don’t rise to the level of enforceable law – and so the secularists will ever be chasing their tails on this.
We don't need things to rise to the level of enforceable law; the Constitution already exists, and the Supreme Court has already, in not so vague rulings, covered its application to teaching religion in science classes in the public schools.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/22/2008 10:17:40 AM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Actually, vis a vis intelligent design, one judge with rather limited jurisdiction has ruled on the activities of one school board using one curriculum. This of course doesn’t apply to the vast majority of schools in the US, some of whom who be reluctant because of the activity, some of whom will be emboldened to challenge the ruling in their own courts.
The evidence from both sides presented in Dover clearly showed, Intelligent Design is just the creationist movement trying to skirt Edwards. We've had more than enough rulings that teaching creationism in public schools is illegal. Edwards and all the other rulings regarding creationism apply to ID as much as they does to creationism.
ID creationism will be tried in other jurisdictions. It will be challenged. Promoting ID creationism in public schools will be found to be illegal again. Tax payers will foot the bill.
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/22/2008 12:39:44 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7785
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quote:
[We don't need things to rise to the level of enforceable law; the Constitution already exists, and the Supreme Court has already, in not so vague rulings, covered its application to teaching religion in science classes in the public schools.
Actually, we do if we want to enforce a law. And the question in Dover (irrelevant of course to most of the US) was whether ID was sufficiently scientific, not creationism.
And as this issue really relies on a fairly esoteric interpretation of the Constitution, it is highly amenable to further review and revision.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/22/2008 12:46:15 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7785
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quote:
The evidence from both sides presented in Dover clearly showed, Intelligent Design is just the creationist movement trying to skirt Edwards. We've had more than enough rulings that teaching creationism in public schools is illegal. Edwards and all the other rulings regarding creationism apply to ID as much as they does to creationism.
ID creationism will be tried in other jurisdictions. It will be challenged. Promoting ID creationism in public schools will be found to be illegal again. Tax payers will foot the bill.
Well, that certainly was Judge Jones ruling, but whether that is a general court opinion is yet to be determined - in the meantime, the rest of us outside of the Middle District of Pennsylvania are free to pursue our American liberties, and thankfully, a number are, which is exactly how I want my tax dollars spent.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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